dblenk Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi My 125BHP TR6 was fitted with a 150 Block according to the last owner and were a batch of NOS blocks bought and fitted sometime ago (No CP or CR number stamped). The guy had the car 18 years so all the bills are there but the receipt says block, as i am looking to do things to the head and read the book on how to improve your TR6. I find the early 150BHP cam would be fine for what i want as i just want to make sure, before everything gets stripped, as i might as well change the cam if it is not the right one. It could be a saloon block ????? HOW DO I IDENTIFY THE BLOCK TO BE A 150 OR 125 (or saloon for that matter)? hope someone can help thanks david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Rick Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi David I don't think there is any difference between the cylinder blocks that would enable you to tell whether it was a 150bhp or a 125bhp if there is no number stamped on the block. I think both models had recessed and non recessed top blocks fitted as did the saloons. I'm sure the cylinder heads are different and there is a table of these in the T R Registers "technicalities" CD. The camshafts are different as well. you can tell by the number of rings on the camshaft which one it is. A search back through this forum should find the information you need. There is also a lot of info about engine serial no's prefix/suffix here: Serial Nos I have a saloon block and a CP block here and I'm damned if I can find any difference in the bare block at all. Hope this helps Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 a 150 block will not have a reccess firetrap around the top of the bores. head gasket without the tab sticking out the back. it will not have the strenghening rib cast into the lower right hand side either. apart from the that only difference between a cp early cc and mg ser no is the numbers themselves. as far as i know. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Rick Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 a 150 block will not have a reccess firetrap around the top of the bores. richard Hi Richard Now I'm confused. I've just built an engine from scratch using a block serial no. CP76864HE. This does have a recess around the top of the block. According to Rimmer Bros and Moss websites recessed blocks started from CP75001? The Saloon block I've got in the corner of the garage also has recesses. Not much help if you haven't got a serial number though. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi Richard Now I'm confused. I've just built an engine from scratch using a block serial no. CP76864HE. This does have a recess around the top of the block. According to Rimmer Bros and Moss websites recessed blocks started from CP75001? The Saloon block I've got in the corner of the garage also has recesses. Not much help if you haven't got a serial number though. Tony mmmm thats why i put as far as i know. did it have the earlier crank and flywheel. either way there all the same.apart from the camshafts crank/flywheel ???????? richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 THanks for all the replies so from the outside without stripping anything down i am looking for the strengthening rib or lack of it. This determines a 150 block and the earlier cam. if this is so i was going to get the head staged and a extractor manifold fitted. If the block is not a 150 then i should change the cam to suit the head and extractor exhaust to get the required BHP correct ??????? regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi, unfortunately the block will not determine the cam on a rebuilt engine. Unless there is a simple way to determine the cam duration with the engine complete, I think you are going to have to have a look at the cam. Or have the car dyno'd. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi, unfortunately the block will not determine the cam on a rebuilt engine. Unless there is a simple way to determine the cam duration with the engine complete, I think you are going to have to have a look at the cam. Or have the car dyno'd. Andy Hi Andy i was told the cam came with the block, when the guy bought it however i am not sure about what in it so i am going to get it dyno'd before the mods as the guy doing the mods suggested a before and after i believe this will be around 135BHP at the wheels its only £20-£30 i let the forum know, getting it done next couple of weeks regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted September 25, 2007 Report Share Posted September 25, 2007 Hi Andyi was told the cam came with the block, when the guy bought it however i am not sure about what in it so i am going to get it dyno'd before the mods as the guy doing the mods suggested a before and after i believe this will be around 135BHP at the wheels its only £20-£30 i let the forum know, getting it done next couple of weeks regards david Hi Dave Firstly let me assure you guys with the last of the 150 BHP models in that from CP75001 onwards they had a recessed block as in the later blocks as well. The flat head blocks were deleted at the end of the 1971 model run leaving the 1972 model to be classed as the recessed block along with single valve springs instead of an inner and outer. Strangely from CR1 (bearing in mind the smaller lift on the camshaft) they reverted to double valve springs. With regard to the earlier "150" cam it has nothing to do with the block itself and certainly was not supplied with the block originally. I once owned a brand new BL short motor and it came with a un-numbered block and had pistons crank and con rods fitted but no cam--mores the pity!!! Alan X755 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2007 Hi DaveFirstly let me assure you guys with the last of the 150 BHP models in that from CP75001 onwards they had a recessed block as in the later blocks as well. The flat head blocks were deleted at the end of the 1971 model run leaving the 1972 model to be classed as the recessed block along with single valve springs instead of an inner and outer. Strangely from CR1 (bearing in mind the smaller lift on the camshaft) they reverted to double valve springs. With regard to the earlier "150" cam it has nothing to do with the block itself and certainly was not supplied with the block originally. I once owned a brand new BL short motor and it came with a un-numbered block and had pistons crank and con rods fitted but no cam--mores the pity!!! Alan X755 Thanks Alan as the cam came with the block, the guy i bought the car off said its 150, therefore as the cam originally does not come with the block, this throws the claim into dispute. i will get the car dyno'd and hopefully the early cam is fitted, as i was thinking of putting in a fast road cam, but when i read the "how to improve a TR6" book, John Williams said the early 150 cam was as good as any. Plus if a dont need to change the cam its all top engine work i will check the block when the heads off also, but i dont think the block is the problem, i was looking to identify the block to highlight what cam is fitted but this does not seem to be the case. regards David (Blenkinship) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Martti Ojanen Posted September 26, 2007 Report Share Posted September 26, 2007 I you need to check the cam timing, see Instructions for cam timing check. I have inspected my earlier cam by removing it, but the number was so vague, that in did no good. I had to check it by measuring with a dial gauge to identify it as a carb cam (wrong for PI). Hope this helps. Martti Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted September 26, 2007 Report Share Posted September 26, 2007 David, Since top-notch head work will dwarf the cost, why not just get a new 150 cam ( better than original now ) with competition followers and be done with it? Once the head is removed there's little extra work involved, and you can renew the timing chain/sprockets too. For that matter, why not just re-do the short block while you're at it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2007 David, Since top-notch head work will dwarf the cost, why not just get a new 150 cam ( better than original now ) with competition followers and be done with it? Once the head is removed there's little extra work involved, and you can renew the timing chain/sprockets too. For that matter, why not just re-do the short block while you're at it? Tom the 6 was bought as a club car to drive ( the wife threatens to divorce if i end up rebuilding it like the one in 97). So tinkering is not so bad. i have a full TR5 rebuild to do and the tinkering was supposed to be experience which could be transferred to the 5 when doing the engine, as i have only rebuilt std stuff previously But maybe its not that simple, its easy to get carried away with things to do. i can just imagine my wifes face with the engine sat along side the 5. it all statred with a changed in exhaust manifold !!!!!!!!!!! i'll get it dyno'd and take it from there regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnC Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Andyi was told the cam came with the block, when the guy bought it however i am not sure about what in it so i am going to get it dyno'd before the mods as the guy doing the mods suggested a before and after i believe this will be around 135BHP at the wheels its only £20-£30 i let the forum know, getting it done next couple of weeks regards david If you get 135bhp at the wheels, then I'd leave well alone! Unless you plan to really breathe on it of course. 135 would be at the top end of what you can expect from a standard '150' car even with a good manifold and exhaust. Possibly not even then. I'll duck now, to avoid the incoming flames John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 If you get 135bhp at the wheels, then I'd leave well alone! Unless you plan to really breathe on it of course. 135 would be at the top end of what you can expect from a standard '150' car even with a good manifold and exhaust. Possibly not even then. I'll duck now, to avoid the incoming flames John John I would say you are about spot on there---top end I would say 125 ish at rear wheels and only on a top runner. The 150BHP was taken from an engine minus its ancillaries, say about 142ish SAE so by the time it reaches the rear wheels it would have to be a good 'un to get even the 125 at the rear. Mind you I have owned in the past 2 x the 125 BHP model and I have to say that after 90 mph they were just gutless compared with the 150 BHP model. Maybe I should duck now too then but I only relate over my findings for the past 27+ years............... Alan X755 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi all i am definitely going to fit the exhaust (pheonix one), so the temptation is to do the head also, now i ask myself when the guy fitted the so called 150 block assuming the right cam, did he fit the 125 head back on , it fits, but do i need to know anything, is it a case of get it done and plonk back on are all the cyl head gaskets the same ????????? after 25 years of running TR's i have never needed to know as all my cars have been std therefore you buy the parts to suit the car any ideas on how to identify the head. The people are using the Cosworth boys to polish, port, skim and redo the valve seats using std valves, also they will match the Dellorto inlets to the head for around £350 all tested on the rigs etc then with the head done and the exhaust fitted i would get it dyn'd and thought it would have a bit of power ???????? i am home this weekend so i will check teh engine for the identifications thanks again great help on this forum regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi all i am definitely going to fit the exhaust (pheonix one), so the temptation is to do the head also, now i ask myself when the guy fitted the so called 150 block assuming the right cam, did he fit the 125 head back on , it fits, but do i need to know anything, is it a case of get it done and plonk back on are all the cyl head gaskets the same ??? David The earlier TR5 and TR6 cylinder head was identified by the stamping of the number 516816 on the flat surface on the top right of the head (looked at from the rear) and this is at the radiator end of things. This is a good flowing head and ripe for some futher work to keep a "power freak" like yourself at bay. However the 2.5S saloon head is renowned to be THE one to have redone as it seemingly flows better, this is identified by the number 219016 in the same place as the earlier number. If you have the standard later cylinder head fitted it is identified by the number 219015--not to be confused with 219016--as the standard 125 head leaves a hellova lot to be desired. Just my tuppence worth. Alan X755 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted September 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Great stuff will check the numbers at the weekend when home and report Monday regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 i have a 2.5 s 219016 head on my 6 you will have to skim quite a bit of it to bring the comp ratio up.i skimmed mine to chambre depth of 525" thou.and they have the sligthly smaller ex valves as well.i have 3 different heads in the garage, looking into the inlet ports the 2.5s looks the best you can see further into them and see more of the valve than the others.if that makes sense. i fitted unleaded seats myself, but fitted the larger cp ones. and used the smaller size valves. i can all hear you saying why ? the smaller valves are lot lighter in weight. and they were completley non magnetic unlike the larger ones. 15000 miles later and no problems. richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 HI got home checked the block it has a rib going horizontally along just under the engine mount casting the cylinder head has the number 218225 the number doesnt match up so i am bugg**** if i know what the hell i have dyno testing booked for 10 am this saturday, hope to go from there, i have a feeling i am going to be disappointed, but then again this is TR's you give them everything and do they help cut the lawn or make the tea in return, not likely regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 HI All just thought i would finish this thread got the head number identified this is the intermediate head (rimmer catalogue) fitted from CP75001 to CR5000 so my guess is its a 150 BHP as it could have been fitted to a CP car ??????? it has the strenghtener so its the later block got the car dyno'd BIG disappointment 85BHP at the wheels, think instead of fitting a 150 block he fitted a saloon block but there it is the question now is what do i do spend £1500 on a full race head and cam to match or fit a fast road cam to get the car up to 150 ish which is what i was going for at first sort of in limbo land i could end up paying out £3K on the engine when the car only cost £5K and i have a full TR5 rebuild to do so thats the chassis paid for ???????????? regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 It might be worth checking the cam is timed correctly before stripping things down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dblenk Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Hi Andy i have just spoken to one of the guys in the group, and he suggested i get things checked, i get great MPG around 33 on the lakes tour, so maybe the triple dellortos are not set correct theres a guy near me who tunes engines the old way, the guy who did the dyno didnt have a timimg gun as everything is set by computer !!! regards david Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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