US Vintage racing videos

[hoffman900]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this how US Vintage racing looks compared to across the Pond.

 

Vintage SCCA B-Production / Trans Am:

 

 

 

Engines:

 

289ci + 0.040" overbore

Aftermarket, 'stock appearing' iron heads (RHS Pro-Action) with a TON of development work

55mm core, steel billet roller cams (over .700" valve lift)

Very modified 650 Holley carburetor

Tri-Y headers into a single 3" tailpipe

13:1 compression +

Real thin ring packages (over $1000 US for rings for 8 cylinders)

 

Lots of flowbench, dyno, and Spintron time. These are basically smaller sizes, iron head, wet sump, low rise intake NASCAR engines. And they are NOT cheap (US $35k + ). The exhaust system alone is close to $4000 US.

 

596bhp, spin over 8000rpm.

 

 

 

 

 

[hoffman900]

Porsche 356. 1620cc and weigh about 1750lbs. These cars are a pain in our side. Very fast and there are about 6-8 really good ones in the US and they line up and draft each other, which makes it difficult to get by. Their rear weight bias makes them very good under braking and they come off the corners like rocket ships.

 

They're making about 150whp (170flywheel) and spin to 8000rpm.

 

 

That Datsun Bluebird (510 with a sloped rear window) you see is a 1.8L car - they make about 205bhp in race trim with our fuels and they weigh about 1850lbs.

 

The Lotus Super 7 is a 1500cc non-crossflow variant. A really good one will make 158bhp and they weigh 1100lbs per rules. VERY fast. That's the same car/driver as seen in my other thread tangling with the TR4 while battling for the lead. They're not real competitive on the faster tracks due to hitting an aero wall.

 

That Elva Courier you see is a 1800cc version. A really strong MGB motor in the US will make 195bhp. Again, they can be quite potent in the right hands.

 

Average lap speed for the front runners is around 90mph. Lap times are in the 2:42 range, which is only about 3 seconds a lap slower than Chris Marx's TR8 was doing with the previous owner.

Edited June 21, 2015 by hoffman900

[hoffman900]

Another race from the same car:

 

The Datsun 510 is a 2.0L version driven by Bob Leitzinger ( Butch's dad). Very fast and is around 215bhp

Edited June 21, 2015 by hoffman900

[hoffman900]

 

Here's Dick in his TR4 and Bob Leitzinger duking it out through traffic (gets heavy about 10:00 in). Both go way back to the 1960s as competitors and friends. The Datsun has much better tires under it which is more an issue of the rules. Dick is 77yo in this video.

Edited June 21, 2015 by hoffman900

[hoffman900]

1622cc (MGA) powered Elva Courier:

 

The front running Datsun 510s (one wasn't in that race) are turning 2:38.0s at Road America. Just about as fast as Chris was turning in the TR8 when he first drove the car there.

 

1800cc (MGB) powered Elva Courier:

 

The 1622 is in a higher state of tune, so it has a little more moxy on the straight.

Edited July 27, 2015 by hoffman900

[MadMarx]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this how US Vintage racing looks compared to across the Pond.

 

Vintage SCCA B-Production / Trans Am:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I missed this post.

The most interesting thing to me is not the raw engine power.

I find it very interesting that the driver doesn't use the clutch. He is doing up and downshifts without and brakes with the left foot.

Very interesting thing.

[hoffman900]

 

I missed this post.

The most interesting thing to me is not the raw engine power.

I find it very interesting that the driver doesn't use the clutch. He is doing up and downshifts without and brakes with the left foot.

Very interesting thing.

 

They use dog box engagements. A lot of racing transmissions have them. Not as smooth as a syncromesh, but a lot stronger and allow you to do that. Allows for faster shifting.

 

Dick's car has them inside the transmission. The transmission in that Mustang is a Jerico. Sam Halkias is using the same transmission in his vintage TR6.

http://www.jericoperformance.com/wc4.htm

http://www.hightowerracingtransmissions.com/Hightower%204-speed%20page%202014.html

http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gf4a.asp

[MadMarx]

I run a dogbox on my own but I rarely use upshifts without clutch and never downshifts without clutch.

 

Really cool video.

 

Does he shift with automatic ignition interrupt and automatic throttle blip as I can't see his foot doing blips.

Edited September 29, 2015 by MadMarx

[jellison]

I tried really hard to not comment on the numbers when this was first posted, but now the thread is still alive......

 

 

There is NO WAY IN HELL a 289(+40) i.e. under 5litres will make 596 Real Flywheel bhp.

 

 

The best fia engine builder in Europe modifying a 289 as far as an fia spec lump will go (£35k not Dollars) can make about 450bhp. People doing this are Knight Race engines and a few others in UK and Europe for similar crazy money and ending up about the same on power.

 

 

These all run bit in the engines that are money no object, steel rods, cranks, one of exhausts, quad downdrafts, you name it they do it with in the regs.

 

 

I have a non fia lump which had all sorts of promised power from the US builder (540-590bhp) which I never believed for one minute, and my engine is not fia > 302 based, solid lifter super trick Australian heads, 11.25 CR (anymore is largely pointless), best one off exhaust system money can by (same as top fia Cobra / Griffith guys use in Euro), special race 750 Holley, you name it, it is in there. Steel roads forged crank, 4 bolt main, spec is endless.............. This makes an honest 441bhp / 450ft/lbs on one of the best respected rolling roads in the UK (flywheel calculated numbers). Initially I was a bit disappointed after the bonkers number quoted, but then the chap said he has a hull house 289 Knight race lump in there in last few weeks and it made virtually identical numbers (iron head vs my ali ones, and maybe a tad smaller), but 2-3x the price.... My engine will rev to 8k, but it will be all more than done by 7 and any more than that race in race out will just take the miles out of it and gain Zero performance.

 

 

I have found over the years US (Aftermarket tuners) power number are generally more of the imagined variety (like their Manufacturers power numbers from the 60's!). Manufacture numbers for modern US cars seem about spot on having had a 405bhp Z06 (2004) engine put in my TVR Chimera back in 2005 - that made within 5% of what it was supposed to.

 

let bar in mind that a McLaren F1 engine (the BMW road car lump) make just over 100bhp/ton, this (now 20 years old, but still very state of the art), is 6.1 litres revs to 7.5k all day and has 4v variable valve heads............

 

The best top euro builders power litre on a Ford SBC is about 92 bhp/ton (not one with Weslake heads which can get a bit above 100)

 

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm. Good reading.

 

A good TR6 screamer race engine (all the right bits, built as good as it can be), make about 92bhp / litre also, but get it power from revs rather than a V8 having Power and torque (TR 6 pot having comparatively poor torque and high up the rev range).

 

A 60's road / race SBC or SBF is a long way from being a Nascar lump.

 

Modern Nascar lumps make about 140bhp/ton and a V8 Supercar (similar very very trick heads), ~137.

 

So you are saying this engine is making ~122bhp/litre (596/4.9).....................

 

Nice video's btw.

[hoffman900]

Jon,

 

These aren't built to FIA rules -we have a more open rules structure. There are top tier NASCAR people involved in the development of those engines..

 

Aftermarket (iron) blocks (better cooling passages and stiffer bores)

Connecting rod length free

Pistons (light weight slipper design with all the bells and whistles)

Piston rings 1.2mm and smaller (NASCAR uses .7mm top ring, but they are also dry dump and run 29" H2O of vacuum in the cranckase) piston rings with titanium nitride coatings (about $1300 for a set on a V8)

13:1+ compression (NASCAR Nextel Cup are limited to 12:1)

55mm cam core

Roller lifters

Over .700" of valve lift

RHS Heads (aftermarket iron heads, stock plug locations) with a TON of r&d work. Over 300cfm @ 28"

H2O and averaging about 300fps port velocity

Edelbrock RPM (dual plane manifold, has to fit under the stock hood) with a ton of internal work.

Holley (type) 750 carburetors. These all have billet metering blocks and a ton of work.

About as great as an exhaust system that can be constructed for the above...

 

 

Hundreds of hours of dyno time, Spintron time working on the valvetrain, etc.

 

590bhp and a wide powerband, you betcha' .

 

 

We're getting a lot of the British engines over 100hp/l. We have MUCH better gas which is part of it (110 and 112 purpose blended racing gas (av gas isn't blended the same)). Valve lift is over .600"

foe the top flight engines and the heads have extensive r&d work to make it all work.

Edited September 29, 2015 by hoffman900

[MadMarx]

I don't doubt the American figures.

On simple V8 tuning the Americans are the kings. Nobody has more experience with those engines.

These V8 really scream - no compare to what you see in Europe.

[hoffman900]

Check out the kind of stuff you can even get for an A-Series engine here:

http://bwrperformance.com/a-series-all.html

 

Nicer than the Swiftune kit.

 

Nothing stopping anyone from developing and selling (just because it's not for sale, doesn't mean it doesn't exist) for the Triumphs. We have two Spitfire racers with bottom ends like that. You can bet the rest of the engine is developed to the same degree.

Edited September 29, 2015 by hoffman900

[jellison]

Hi Hoff.

 

Even if I could rev my engine that hard, I don't think I would! How long between rebuilds!??

 

Have to tell myself, must drive fast.........

 

I'm familiar with Swiftune stuff - yes they do make amazing engine revving to 9-10k but they would cost as much as the Engine above and then some, just for a Mini lump for the Goodwood revival

 

Jelly

[Tom Fremont]

Pretty impressive that you drop $35K for an engine and it comes with a carburetor - and a Holley at that!

 

Was it flying upside down that drove the development of injection?

 

Tom

[hoffman900]

Hi Hoff.

 

Even if I could rev my engine that hard, I don't think I would! How long between rebuilds!??

 

Have to tell myself, must drive fast.........

 

I'm familiar with Swiftune stuff - yes they do make amazing engine revving to 9-10k but they would cost as much as the Engine above and then some, just for a Mini lump for the Goodwood revival

 

Jelly

 

I don't know about those particular engines, but other V8s prepped like that in other series go about 400-500 miles before they do a leakdown and check the valve springs. Valve springs can be changed on the car.

 

 

Pretty impressive that you drop $35K for an engine and it comes with a carburetor - and a Holley at that!

 

Was it flying upside down that drove the development of injection?

 

Tom

 

Those engines with everything added are more than $35k. A NASCAR engine on lease is about $50k and Roush and Hendricks each build over 200 of them a year, so they're assembly line type. In some of the naturally aspirated drag race classes, the engines are over $100k each.

 

Holley's are fantastic carburetors and there have been hundreds of thousands of hours tied up in developing them.

 

They're using carburetors like this:http://blp.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72_123_288

 

Nothing stock here...

 

 

Fuel injection isn't a guarantee performance increase, it has to be engineered and set up correctly to do so (not unlike a carburetor, but you get the point). Per Hendricks Racing's dyno operator, they lost power going to EFI over the carburetor. Not because EFI is bad, just that it isn't as simple as adding a throttle body and sticking some injectors in the runners. Injector location and angle plays a HUGE role in the tuneability and power on a EFI engine and takes some work. Of course, given a blank sheet (injector locations where they please plus allowing multiple rows (think shower type), and any intake manifold) they could make more power, but that's not how rules work.

 

The real nice thing with a single Holley is that is features a wet plenum design (the plenum is on the exit side of the carburetor). LOTS of tuning goes on here (via carburetor spacers, etc.). They also allow you to be more aggressive on the exhaust side and not have reversion issues.

 

The fellow (NASCAR, World of Outlaws, LeMans, NHRA wins and championships under his belt) who builds the exhausts seen on that Ford engine told me they can't run the same exhaust configuration (and one that is faster) on those engines with individual bore carburetors due to lack of dampening from the plenum before the carburetor.

 

Cheers,

Bob

Edited October 1, 2015 by hoffman900

[hoffman900]

From a couple years ago. The top 4 cars are big block "A-Production" (427ci V8s) cars. The pack with the GT350s (302ci), Camaro (302ci), and Jaguars (4.2) are in "B-Production".

 

on board with that lead Corvette at a different track:

Edited October 1, 2015 by hoffman900