Retaining a vehicles identity

[Glenn_Howard]

A neighbour has asked my advice regarding the legalities of selling a dismantled car. It's a good question and I am hoping that the TRR hive mind will know the answers.

 

A couple of years ago he acquired a Triumph Spitfire and recently purchased another as it had a better chassis and other shiny bits that might improve his rebuild. He has now dismantled both cars and would like to pick and mix the best bits to make one good car. The rest he hopes to sell on as a dismantled 'project'. I saw both cars before he took them apart and they were in pretty good condition.

 

His questions are:

 

1. Are there any rules about taking the best bits from two cars to make one good one. For instance, to keep its identity does it need to have matching numbered components (axles, gearbox, engine, chassis/commission number)? This applies to the car he's putting together and the boxed one that he plans to sell.

 

2. What links the car to its registration plate, is it the chassis/commission number?

 

I should point out that my neighbour is an honest chap and isn't trying to deceive anyone. He just wants to make sure he understands the DVLA rules before he tries to sells the 'leftovers' with its identity intact.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Glenn

[john.r.davies]

Of course there are rules, to beat car-cloning scum. Moderns have a serial number on every major part, that is recorded during the build.

But on a Spitfire? Those even had a chassis number, different from the VIN/Commision number. but it wasn't recorded in the final papers and even if you can find the little, welded-on plate, the numbers will be rusted away. The engine number may be on the VR but not the diff., gearbox etc. and the DVLA make no problems about an engine number change.

 

No, let him pic'n'mix! But make sure he notifies the DVLA of which 'car', in fact which Commission Number plate, he scraps, else he will be pursued for even for SORN. Instructions on the VR, if he has one.

If his cars were never SORNed, then it would be best to tell the DVLA which goes to the Great Garage in the Sky. They make no probs about cars that suddenly are reincarnated, and haven't been registered for years. so one that has been scrapped shouldn't be a problem either.

Once SORNed, always SORNed! But until then RIP!

 

JOhn

[grumpy2]

Here's my understanding of what is legally correct and what is currently standard practice

 

If your friend uses parts from 2 cars to make one new car the the new car should be re-registered on a Q plate, the remaining parts can be sold individually or as a lot and again registered on a Q plate.

 

However

 

The classic car world is littered with cars mixed and matched from two or more other cars with v5 documents and VIN plates fitted to suit. It would be typical of such practice for your friend to make one good car from the best bits of both and use whichever identity he chooses. It would also not be unusual for him then to pass on the remaining parts and identity for another enthusiast to complete a second restoration.

 

I'm not condoning the above practice as it is bending the law at best but it does allow many classics, particularly the rarer ones, to continue to be on the road.

 

Gary

[peejay4A]

Wasn't/isn't there a points system which determined how many parts of a donor vehicle were needed for the finished project to bear the registration of the donor? There are Westfields, Caterhams, Locosts etc out there that are testament to it.

 

Edit. Thought so. Here it is https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

Edited February 5, 2015 by peejay4A

[mjdearing]

Glen the days when local dvla office sent latest employee out to have a look at your newly restored lump and tick some boxes have gone, if i had enough time and ink to explain my problem doing exactly this albeit with a pair of classic camper vans you would be wise to advise your neighbour to keep shtun,do the restoration and go with the ID he wants, i have had the police dvla and worst of all vosa inspectors on my case for the last 8 months, basically if a number is'nt a permanant fixture then it's vitually impossible to prove its origin and vosa dont do might be,s could be's etc i only have the dormobile club to thank as i am nearly there with my saga.

[Paul Down]

Tread very carefully with the DVLA, two VSCC members are currently having a real battle with them currently regarding re-bodied 1930 vehicles.

 

Both vehicles are completely original apart from needing new bodies due to corrosion, DVLA are insisting that the cars be registered with a Q plate rather than an age related number. As another member said it encourages owners to be less than honest when applying for a registration number. If the restorers had just applied for a number having had their cars vetted by marque experts and not mentioned a new body apparently they would not have had a problem.

 

It also apparently depends on which desk your application arrives, if on a jobsworths , hard luck! The days of your friendly DVLA local office are long gone, mores the pity.

[Barry911]

Actually, if the thirties cars were on their original chassis and running gear, by the DVLA's own rules, there should be no problem. Scroll down to the points system table:

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

 

As for the case of the OP, I'd definitely keep quiet.

 

The bottom line is that a) All parts were made by Triumph and b ) Fundamentally what concerns DVLA mainly is that someone is putting their hand up and saying 'I would like to be legally responsible for this car, and please make me the first port if call should an offence linked to the vehicle be committed'.

 

I think the only time there's a moral issue is 1) If it was important to the originality of the vehicle (flogging a converted LHD 4a as a genuine RHD 5), 2) It's provinence (using just the ID from a well known historic competition car, albeit destroyed in period perhaps, onto a car never involved in such activities is questionable. 3) By changing the ID the car becomes eligible as Historic, with the tax (customs excise issue??), membership, entry or similar benefits. 4) To ring a stolen car or parts. I'm guessing the OP's neighbour isn't the grand fromage of an internationally notorious car crime ring? Might be worth double checking ....

 

Sadly it does sound like it could potentially be a classic case of our times: be honest and get into trouble over something that has no negative impact on people or the state, or keep quiet and feel guilty that you should have probably made things official somehow.

 

I'll be pretty confident about my GT, as, looking at the table, it would gain full points, as it's only the outer skin being changed.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Barry911

[Barry911]

Of course, if the thirties cars had replacement bodies that went from saloon to sports, and during that journey ended up having the chassis cut down (as you often do), then there could be trouble. Again, as listed above.

 

I believe the justification of the Q plate system is that it alerts anyone in the future that the origins of the car are suspect in some way. Personally I think it's a rather blunt tool, and wasn't really designed for today's historically aware (and generally sympathetic) times. I'd think there really needs to be a tiered system, with Q at one end (god knows what it is, or what it's from), to perhaps a log-book only marking (certainly period vehicle from one maker, but as had modified chassis or body, and was subject to inspection upon completion).

 

For all that, it just adds more weight to the fact that don't regard it as asking for DVLA's help so much as don't poke that particular hornet's nest!

[DaveN]

I like item one regarding the chassis ' new direct from the manufacturer'! So how does that work with say a chassis from CTM?

A bit different from rebuilt WW2 fighters, as long as you have the data plate you can make a clone!

[Paul Down]

......"Actually, if the thirties cars were on their original chassis and running gear, by the DVLA's own rules, there should be no problem. Scroll down to the points system table:

https://www.gov.uk/v...ltered-vehicles".....

 

Yes you would think not but apparently the jobsworth at DVLA does not know the difference between a Monocoque and a body with a separate chassis and refuses to budge.

 

The appeal process is now in the hands of M P s etc.

 

So the moral is as you point out is be very careful what you actually tell DVLA it could easily backfire if you are too forthcoming.

[Geko]

If you got 2 sets of documents, 1 set of letters/numbers punches and a bit of creativity you (potentially) have 2 perfectly legit cars