Ryan Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Just thought I would mention that the second round of the HRCR clubmans championship is this weekend. Lisa and I are entered, but unusually not many other TRs, only one other 3A. Looking forward to seeing anyone we may know at Askham college near York on Saturday (rally Sunday). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 So what's happened to Tony & Richard? Triumphs did rather well last year I seem to recall Really looking forward to it, let's hope the weather holds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Nearly a TR, we're entered in the 2000 rally tank. Looking forward to it and our local round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Hi all Can't do this one I'm afraid, hard weekend in the Isle of Mann and quite a lot to do to the car still. Not looking good so far for the one day events this year, but may have some HERO events planned. Hopefully we will be out in Ilkley. I believe that Richard now has a seat in Howard Warren's 911 so expect a strong performance from that car and crew. Top flight all 3. I hope we don't lose him to the DARK Side .... Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Only one TR3a, one TR4 and one T2000? Good luck to the crews on Sunday, Triumph honour rests on your shoulders! Some way from a full entry overall too; is this a sign of things to come as finances tighten? Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 The format of this event in its third year had been changed and we really enjoyed it. The majority of the tests were in the morning in quick succession on all types of surface, with just a couple of regularities thrown in and then a succession of regularities followed by some good old fashioned plot and bash in the afternoon, with further tests to finish back at the venue. There was some talk of the tests been too tight, but even in the 2000 with liberal use of the handbrake we found them to be enjoyable and fast paced. The route was very tourist orientated with a drive by Castle Howard and an impressive ruined abbey. What more could you ask for. We had no clutch for tests 1 & 2 (hydraulic problem) so off the line and the stop start was "stop engine, in gear kangaroo off the line" however as with all classic Triumphs it cured itself for test 3! We managed our best performance to date 5th overall. I would highly recommend this event as an ever improving rally in the HRCR series. Cheers Dazzer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Excellent -sorry to have missed it. Well done on a good result. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 A good result, well done both of you! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Thanks guys, might see you on the Ilkley? Photo of the dust on the airfield tests. You have to admire the hardcore TR drivers and others with the hood down! If I come across the TR photos I'll post them. Cheers Darren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Interesting event. Two school boy errors on the navigation (one from Ian and one from me) and an exclusion for swopping over at lunchtime. Not our finest rally. The problem facing me now is to turn this into something positive to write about for TR Action. David Copley braved the dust and took some good pictures. Neat result Darren, well done. Roll on the Jubilee Regards kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Hi Kev Sounds like you've got plenty to write about there! Overcoming adversity, I guess we've all had a rally or two like that, good to hear it hasnt dampened your spirits. Onwards and upwards to the Ilkley Jubilee. Cheers Darren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 R 5.4.3 states that "Only the nominated driver and co-driver listed on the official entry form can drive during a competition, unless the SRs s specify otherwise". So why were Kevin and Ian excluded from this event? Have I missed a part of the SRs. I know championship regulations don't allow for this but surely we shouldn't exclude a crew who want to share a drive, should we? It's hard enough to get a car and crew to the other end of the country without then being kicked out, with all due respect I don't think they were challenging Howard Warren for the win! As for ourselves we were penalised for 3 wrong tests. We clipped some cones and were given test maximums each time . Then told the marshal had written fail on his check sheet, hence no discussion entered in to! Hey ho, Ilkley in three weeks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Yeah I thought that as well, but on checking the SRs it is specified for this event. I'm going to check the SRs more carefully from now on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Ok so it's specified for this event, if im honest I don't check them like I used to when I was in the other seat. But why is it specified? Ridiculous rules for people who are just trying to have a fun weekend out. In my opinion of course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 The reason why we take part is to have fun and challenge ourslves. Sure it's nice to see the results and compare how we did against others but more important is the grin factor. As a driver you sit there praying for an unforced error that requires you to make up time. As a navigator, you want to get it perfect to the second. So yes we agree, petty rules. We won't be doing the Leukaemia this year because the scrutineer wants us to remove the electronic ignition as it isn't period. They would rather we didn't enter than turn up with the electronic ignition in place. Weird but true. We will continue to double drive and continue to laugh and smile. take care Kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Oooh, tricky one! I know we are all in it for fun (well, most of us...) but we do need a level playing field. Whether you agree with the rules or think they are silly, rules is rules. I know Kev and Ian always like to share the driving; it seems harmless enough and I've never had any beef with it at all, but unless they can do this within the rules (both sign on as drivers?) then it's out. We all start the rally with a clean sheet so we can't give some crews exemptions from certain rules just because they are not expected to win; what about the other crews in their class? May I suggest that to turn a blind eye to regulations by organisers just to gain extra entries is a slippery slope to chaos. Shame on you, Kev! Electronic ignition has always been banned for TR's in Category one, there is no proof that it was available in period. All road rally scrutineers should reject your car if they spot it, don't single out the Leukaemia as if they were the only one being 'mean'! Are you telling me that I've been dutifully running my TR4 on points and condenser against you in your TR3A, and now it seems that all this time you've been enjoying an unfair reliability advantage over me by secretly using a modern electronic distributor? QED!!!!! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 I'm a long way away and the rules are different here (for starters, we don't have historic rallying in any real sense at all so I can run just about anything I like in my TR - even though I run period-correct for my own perverse enjoyment). However, I do agree with Nigel that rules is rules. Also, I don't want to get into a big debate about the apparent rules inconsistency of what was "available in period" or not (apart from anything else, I'll probably get the detail wrong) but I certainly remember that when I rallied in the UK there WAS quite a bit of inconsistency - 70 profile tyres allowed, but electronic ignition not...? Notwithstanding any inconsistency, it is fair to say that electronic ignition can improve reliability. HOWEVER, what seems odd to me is to specifically ADD a rule in the SR's outlawing driver/co-driver swap when this is explicitly allowed in the MSA's rules. Unless you make an (unreasonable?) argument for improved fatigue-resistance, I can't imagine how this makes a team better - some of the time you must, by definition, have your second-best driver/navigator pairing in place. It's this rule that I don't understand. Yes, rules is rules and Kev was excluded quite correctly.......but why have this rule anyway?? Sharing drives can add enjoyment and bring more competitors and, I would suggest (and the MSA seemingly agrees), doesn't unfairly improve performance. [btw - even if it DID - everyone else could do it too] Commiserations, Kev. I'm glad you'll continue to compete this way. I'd suggest that you read the SR's closely and then loudly and widely lobby to have this rule removed wherever it exists. It's dumb - oh, and not really period correct either . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Hi Darren, Good to see your result in this rally and congratulations. I remember when the original and proper RAC rally used the road in front of Castle Howard as part of a special stage back in the early seventies and I stood near the front door watching the cars go through. Happy memories Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Are you telling me that I've been dutifully running my TR4 on points and condenser against you in your TR3A, and now it seems that all this time you've been enjoying an unfair reliability advantage over me by secretly using a modern electronic distributor? Nigel Nigel, it's no secret, it's plain to see for anyone that lifts the bonnet. Frankly on the rallies with Ian's mechanical skills we could switch back and not be at a disadvantage. But we did suffer problems on the hillclimbs and went through various frustrations until Ian installed electronic ignition and since then no iginition problems at all. So for touring and for sprinting and hillclimbing it stays. We're happy never to win a trophy or award, we just want to come out play and see how well we did. regards kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 I retract the word 'secretly' from my post, Kev, I didn't mean to imply that you were being in any way underhanded. My tongue was in my cheek as I wrote that sentence! As you say yourself, the old points ignition can be troublesome, so using electronics is more reliable. But in historic road rallying at least it is not allowed in pre-1968 Category One (the HRCR tech intel is that such systems were not available before 1970) so one immediately gives oneself an advantage in reliability over the other cars in this class, competitive or not. (I only picked on you to illustrate my point as a response to your comment about the Leukaemia organisers!) But most competitors in this class do run contact-breaker distributors successfully.....or am I the only one not using electronic ignition, I never thought of that! Rules often appear silly, and I'm far from agreeing with some of them, but they can simply have implications which are not immediately apparent. The double-driving rule - it is a general MSA rule, Tim, the event ASR's can specifically delete the ruling, not add it - may be a result of organisers' blanket insurance issues, for example. Whatever, the onus is on the competitor to check and comply. I would have been just as miffed as Ryan at the marshal on the NYC tests, though. That was a definate official's mistake - inexperience or just not concentrating? Did he mark any other cars in the same way? It would never have occurred to me to check his score sheet at the time either. It just shows that the the officials need to get the rules right too! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Fair comment on the double-driving rule, Nigel. I'd still lobby to have it changed wherever it appears, though - and then comply with the rules as written. (we can talk about how the stop-astride rule and penalties USED to be another time... ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graycow Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 No NIgel, you aren't the only one using points etc. Jim and I have always used standard ignition set up with no problems and I think most TRs competing at this end of the country are the same. As to the double drive problem; It could be an insurance issue. For both to be able to drive they would need to have appropriate insurance in place. Most event insurances (e.g. Lockton) assume that only the driver is covered. Not sure how you would get cover both but that could certainly be an unwanted complication for the organisers even if in practice, TRs at least, would often have their own insurance through the Towergate scheme. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan Posted April 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Ok, so without getting borish like some other rally forums, and please trust me i'm not trying to be pig headed either, so here it goes. The blue book says quote "5.4.3. Only the nominated Driver and Co-Driver listed on the Official entry form can drive during a Competition, unless the SRs specify otherwise." Now this is the exact rule which got our fellow TRers kicked off a rally by the organisers. Yes I know the SRs stipulated they weren't allowed to do this so York MC and Simon were correct in the decision. Yes this may be because of insurance issues for the event, can't personally see this as an issue if RTA insurance is ok (here is the point I promise) because the blue book says that both crew members are allowed to drive the car. The rule is in place so that on top flight events or long distance big money events etc. the crew have to remain in the car as crew and can't be helicoptered around from stage start to stage finish. That is the way I read it anyway, not that the existing crew can't change seats half way through a one day historic rally. Think it was Tim who made the good point that by sharing duties they will by definition have a disadvantage for half the day, but that should be their perogative and not some organiser who may or may not have copied his SRs from another event without understanding the full consequences. Having said that if the crew were that worried they could have asked if the SRs could be ammended to align with the blue book, and I'm sure if they had asked the question and had a vaild reason for refusal we would know about it on here by now. With regards electronic ignition I have broken down as a navigator about 3 times in a TR with failed rotor arms in the early 2000s and it wasn't a pleasant experience. 883GOH was made to take the roller rocker bearings out by an eagle eyed eligibility scrutineer ten years ago. Not trying to throw mud at all but ask the question, is it ok to fit modern parts to do a job only if the scrutineer can see them? or should we as the entrant be a little bit more self policing about our cars? Our car is still on points and I couldn't honestly look anyone in the eye at the start line otherwise. Sorry to prattle on, see you all at Ilkley, only two weeks to go now , must order some more 70 profile tyres!! Ryan Pickering Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan Posted April 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Just reread what I have written and I'm not sure if I made it clear but we have standard points and condensor. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graycow Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Out of interest I just looked at the regs for our next event, The Berwick Classic. There is no specific deviation from 5.4.3 except for the following: "If you opt to use Lockton Insurance then the person who signs the insurance declaration at the start of the rally must drive on all of the road sections." I wonder if York put the change in to their SRs for this sort of reason. It looks to me that for Berwick, the driver would have to drive on the public road if Lockton insurance is used (But not if covered on their own insurance), but either crew member could drive the tests. I must admit I have shared driving on rallies, even stage ones, before now so I understand why you may want to do it and it seem silly to me to prevent that option when MSA are clearly relaxed about it, subject of course to RTA insurance being in place. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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