angelfj Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 We did a trial fit of the radiator yesterday. The shop temp was maybe 40F so we were kinda working fast but we are concerned by the lack of clearance between the fan blade and radiator. Considering vibration, normal flex, etc, what is considered a safe amount of clearance to prevent the fan from crashing into the rad. Were there variations in radiators/dimensions? Have you experienced this issue? Considering the engine can't be moved to the rear and the cross member in front of the radiator prevents movement forward, what can be done. Any suggestions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hello Frank! What's the actual clearance between the rad and the fan in your car? I'm sorry I can't show you a pic of my car: I have installed an electric fan. When installed correctly, the rad has 4 connecting points. It can't hardly move at all! (A bit off topic now ---) It's wise to mount rubbers between the top mountings and the connecting rod. I mounted them too tight and the soldering between the top of the rad and the actual coils started to leak! Vibration caused the soldering to crack! Back on topic now: I think that there's a nice picture of the correct distance between rad and fan in The Original TR2 by Bill Piggot and I think that there's a nice pic on the Australian TR Register's website too (don't know for sure!). Wishing you a wonderful Tuesday , you know what I mean! Regards, Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hello Frank! What's the actual clearance between the rad and the fan in your car? I'm sorry I can't show you a pic of my car: I have installed an electric fan. When installed correctly, the rad has 4 connecting points. It can't hardly move at all! (A bit off topic now ---) It's wise to mount rubbers between the top mountings and the connecting rod. I mounted them too tight and the soldering between the top of the rad and the actual coils started to leak! Vibration caused the soldering to crack! Back on topic now: I think that there's a nice picture of the correct distance between rad and fan in The Original TR2 by Bill Piggot and I think that there's a nice pic on the Australian TR Register's website too (don't know for sure!). Wishing you a wonderful Tuesday , you know what I mean! Regards, Menno Menno: I will be sure to take some measurements this week. It was very cold yesterday and we were anxious to move to a warmer spot - like the pub down the road! AND thank you we know what you mean about Tuesday! Cheers Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidescreen Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hi Frank, The clearance between my radiator and fanblade is about 10 mm. During 28000 km hasn't it not given any problems so far ! Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hi Frank, The clearance between my radiator and fanblade is about 10 mm. During 28000 km hasn't it not given any problems so far ! Regards Raymond: It's always good to hear from you. Your car and website, like Menno's, have been an inspiration for me to keep going until I'm done. Thanks for the information. Cheers, Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trevor S Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Frank I had a similar problem with my TR2, but this was due to using a TR4 o/d gearbox which is slightly longer. The problem was solved by extending the holes in the rear gear box mount which relieved the pressure on the front engine mountings. Appreciate this is of no help if you have the correct box. The fan on my TR4 with correct box runs 12mm away from the back of the radiator but has not been a problem over several years Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 The designed clearance is just a bit less than the thickness of the fanbelt! AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 The designed clearance is just a bit less than the thickness of the fanbelt! AlanR AlanR et al: PROBLEM SORTED Based on a tip from our British Car Forum here, it seems that there was a design change in the crank-fan extension when the TR4 was introduced. We looked in the spare parts bin this morning and actually found three styles of extension; short cast iron at 3 3/4 -inch fitted to TR3/3A, long cast iron at 4 3/8-inch fitted to TR4/4A and long aluminum at 4 3/8-inch which we believe may have been fitted to the TR2. Can anyone confirm the TR2 unit being aluminum and 4 3/8-inch long? Ian C are you out there? After checking, we confirmed that the extension on our project 3A is the long one, 4 3/8-inch which is incorrect. This explains the fan clearance issue. So, yet another detour but after a little glass beading and some paint on the short cast iron extension, we will have gained 5/8-inch which should resolve this problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 3 different lenghts and weigths?? I didn't know that! And what's more: does this shed new light on the function of fan extension and he alleged crank faillures???? Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) 3 different lenghts and weigths?? I didn't know that! And what's more: does this shed new light on the function of fan extension and he alleged crank faillures???? Menno Menno, Ah, you would be referring to the function of harmonic balancer. Correct? Let's see. The density of cast iron is approx. 7000 kg/m3 , whilst that of aluminium is 2770 kg/m3. So, for a fixed shape, like the tall extension, the cast iron one would 'weigh' 2.53 times as much. To equalize the "mass", would require a volume increase of 253 percent in the alumium one. We see no difference in the shape. They are virtually identical. But, cancelling out harmonics requires more than just the correct mass. The placement of the mass (radius of gyration) is also critical. The low mass of the aluminum extension , in order to serve as a harmonics cancellation device, would have required some other change in the crankshaft or something else connected to it, e.g., rods, pistons, flywheel, etc. food for thought Edited January 19, 2009 by angelfj Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 That's why I used the word 'alleged' here! (Now I hope it's the correct phrase!). And I agree with you completely on this one too and I'm glad you are able to throw in some serious figures as well! Although, I think we can have opened a can of worms here... As you know, my car has no original fan mounted in front of the engine. I remember the guys at the workshop (where they overhauled the engine) telling me that they had balanced the bare crank completly. When they attached the flywheel to the crank and they started the whole balancing process again, the whole construction tried to jump off the test rig and walk out the door... The flywheel caused an enormous imbalance, although mounted the same way as it had been bolted together in the first place when they dismantled the engine! Imho, this proofs that you are right about the components attached! Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 That's why I used the word 'alleged' here! (Now I hope it's the correct phrase!). yes that is correct And I agree with you completely on this one too and I'm glad you are able to throw in some serious figures as well! Although, I think we can have opened a can of worms here... As you know, my car has no original fan mounted in front of the engine. I remember the guys at the workshop (where they overhauled the engine) telling me that they had balanced the bare crank completly. When they attached the flywheel to the crank and they started the whole balancing process again, the whole construction tried to jump off the test rig and walk out the door... The flywheel caused an enormous imbalance, although mounted the same way as it had been bolted together in the first place when they dismantled the engine! Imho, this proofs that you are right about the components attached! does this mean that your car has no fan extension or fan or do you have the extension without a fan? Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Frank, I have the 'modded' version: No extension, just the special large bolt and the balanced thin pully. Something similar to the Narrow belt conversion kit from Moss-Europe; And thus: no original fan! All components used below the front apron: - new, thicker radiator, without the starter hole - radiator fluid catch tank next to the radiator (no water leaks under the car) - NOS original radiator cap - 11' Pacet fan (pull) with override switch on the dashboard (and a period warning light that comes on, everytime the fan cuts in). - downpipe with switch - uprated w/pump from a well reputated fellow forum member - partly blocked off bypass hose (so that the coolant is forced through the rad). - original flimsy airflow-device around the rad. Copyright to all this: various forum members, contributing to the rebuild of my 3A. I wanted to replace the flimsy airflow-device for an aluminium one, but I saw a TR in the workshop at Henk's place... The owner had made that upgrade, but after a slight collision, the edge of the aluminium had cut through the rad's core, leaving the car stranded without coolant! I think that all mods will cope with the summer temps overhere Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Frank, I have the 'modded' version: No extension, just the special large bolt and the balanced thin pully. Something similar to the Narrow belt conversion kit from Moss-Europe; And thus: no original fan! All components used below the front apron: - new, thicker radiator, without the starter hole - radiator fluid catch tank next to the radiator (no water leaks under the car) - NOS original radiator cap - 11' Pacet fan (pull) with override switch on the dashboard (and a period warning light that comes on, everytime the fan cuts in). - downpipe with switch - uprated w/pump from a well reputated fellow forum member - partly blocked off bypass hose (so that the coolant is forced through the rad). - original flimsy airflow-device around the rad. Copyright to all this: various forum members, contributing to the rebuild of my 3A. I wanted to replace the flimsy airflow-device for an aluminium one, but I saw a TR in the workshop at Henk's place... The owner had made that upgrade, but after a slight collision, the edge of the aluminium had cut through the rad's core, leaving the car stranded without coolant! I think that all mods will cope with the summer temps overhere Menno Menno: Many thanks for the clarification. Cheers, Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Frank I had a similar problem with my TR2, but this was due to using a TR4 o/d gearbox which is slightly longer. The problem was solved by extending the holes in the rear gear box mount which relieved the pressure on the front engine mountings. Appreciate this is of no help if you have the correct box. The fan on my TR4 with correct box runs 12mm away from the back of the radiator but has not been a problem over several years I have just been out to the garage and had a look at my '58 3A which has the original engine. The fan is 1" away from the radiator. The blades are angled and this is measured at the closest point. It is a little difficult to measure in situ and cold out there. I was unable to find any of these mm and think that Trevors car may have been altered from standard. A long time ago on holiday, I came up a small rocky lane joining the main road, and accelerated too hard. The engine shifted forwards and cut a round hole in the radiator. A local garage came out and repaired the damage. This involved taking off the bumper, the front panel and removing the radiator.The broken vertical tubes were soldered at each break, and the whole radiator tested. It worked and they put it all back together. It was all finished in an afternoon and looking back, I think that the engine mountings must have been soft with age, but it really caused some damage. I ran the car with the repaired radiator for the next 18 months. At the time I had no understanding of the captive nuts, the aged loom and connectors, the engine mountings, the rad hoses or the tendency to overheat. The team were very interested and got us out of trouble in no time at all. We carried on and drove 2000 miles home in a car whose rust alone would have failed the MOT if there had been one. Most of the parts on the car were very worn. Now there are no worn parts and it is quite an achievement if I can last a month without repairing something. I have one of the largest collections of useless control boxes in the world, many of them new.The damp effects the fuse box and I can understand why the TR4 has a cover over the fuses. I think these cars like to be driven every day and will last forever. The DSUO which my car now gets is not right. I still have the receipt from the Greek garage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I have just been out to the garage and had a look at my '58 3A which has the original engine. The fan is 1" away from the radiator. The blades are angled and this is measured at the closest point. It is a little difficult to measure in situ and cold out there. I was unable to find any of these mm and think that Trevors car may have been altered from standard. A long time ago on holiday, I came up a small rocky lane joining the main road, and accelerated too hard. The engine shifted forwards and cut a round hole in the radiator. A local garage came out and repaired the damage. This involved taking off the bumper, the front panel and removing the radiator.The broken vertical tubes were soldered at each break, and the whole radiator tested. It worked and they put it all back together. It was all finished in an afternoon and looking back, I think that the engine mountings must have been soft with age, but it really caused some damage. I ran the car with the repaired radiator for the next 18 months. At the time I had no understanding of the captive nuts, the aged loom and connectors, the engine mountings, the rad hoses or the tendency to overheat. The team were very interested and got us out of trouble in no time at all. We carried on and drove 2000 miles home in a car whose rust alone would have failed the MOT if there had been one. Most of the parts on the car were very worn. Now there are no worn parts and it is quite an achievement if I can last a month without repairing something. I have one of the largest collections of useless control boxes in the world, many of them new.The damp effects the fuse box and I can understand why the TR4 has a cover over the fuses. I think these cars like to be driven every day and will last forever. The DSUO which my car now gets is not right. I still have the receipt from the Greek garage. Richard: It's nice to hear from you! I remember our nice chat at Stoneleigh last year. Hold on to those control boxes. You never know when you might need one. Who knows. The copper alone is worth approx. $4/lb. right now! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi Frank, I haven't any reference to an alternative fan extension for the TR2, all my books show the same part number 108493 straight through the sidescreen cars, and that includes the 3B. It changes with the TR4 to 128318 and that stays with the 4A too. I have seen alloy rather than iron extensions of the long and short variety, and assumed that they were an SAH or somesuch replacement to reduce rotating weight, but that may not be a correct assumption ? I'm also sure that I've usually seen the alloy extensions in conjunction with non-standard fans . . . . As for rotating items and crankshafts - how many people are aware of the balance pieces on both the fan extension and the fan assembly . . . 'as required' as the parts book coyly puts it ! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Soffe Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 The designed clearance is just a bit less than the thickness of the fanbelt! AlanR Before I fitted the front mounted electric fan - and removed the normal fan blades - I used to have a spare fan belt tie-wrapped to the block so that should a belt break I would be able to change it quickly. A friend with TR3 had to undo the engine mounts so that the engine could be raised to enable the belt to be changed. Not easy on the Peage in France!! JohnS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Down Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 AlanR et al:PROBLEM SORTED Based on a tip from our British Car Forum here, it seems that there was a design change in the crank-fan extension when the TR4 was introduced. We looked in the spare parts bin this morning and actually found three styles of extension; short cast iron at 3 3/4 -inch fitted to TR3/3A, long cast iron at 4 3/8-inch fitted to TR4/4A and long aluminum at 4 3/8-inch which we believe may have been fitted to the TR2. Can anyone confirm the TR2 unit being aluminum and 4 3/8-inch long? Ian C are you out there? After checking, we confirmed that the extension on our project 3A is the long one, 4 3/8-inch which is incorrect. This explains the fan clearance issue. So, yet another detour but after a little glass beading and some paint on the short cast iron extension, we will have gained 5/8-inch which should resolve this problem. I have 2 original TR2 engines both unmodified and the extension piece is cast iron in both cases and measures 4", the dog for the starting handle adds another 1". Bear in mind that originally the rad would have had a hole for the starting handle so would give extra clearance for the dog. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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