Front Camber (and rear) both out but ??

[RobinTR6]

The front offside camber on my TR5 is about -3.5 way too much negative. I am assuming that if I remove the shims on the front bottom wishbone offside (2 shims front and rear) that the camber will be adjusted toward the positive. Is that correct and any views by how much. The camber on the nearside seems reasonable at about -1.

 

Unhappily the rear offside is also -3.5 very nasty. The brackets are 1 notch on the outer and 2 on the inner which should be ok, they are the same both sides and the nearside camber is about right. . I suspect because the rear chassis leg offside has been replaced this hasnt been done well enough hence the discrepancy. I have a look at the various forums and Buckley triumph. If i take the Buckley adjustments for the various barcket configurations i.e mine although correct are about -2.5 out and look for the relative adjustment and mix of brackets then I should be able to improve the camber by changing the brackets. I spoke to teh guys at Hemel Hemstead who are quoted as I am near them but they will only set the rear camber if you have adjustable brackets (which I dont have)

[Richard Crawley]

To reduce negative camber at the front, you’re correct in assuming you need to remove shims from the bottom but with only 2 shims in position, I would be inclined to investigate why it's showing so much negative! The standard front camber setting is 0 degrees +/- ½ degree but I would always adjust to give 0 to ½ negative; some increase this to 1 degree negative for track use but I wouldn’t go beyond that.

 

I assume you saw my previous post on how to check the camber with a large steel square, steel rule & a little maths!

[88V8]

Well now.

 

I am also grappling with this, although the fronts are OK.

My fronts only appear to have one shim, I may be wrong. The shims are pretty thick so I guess the adjustment may be quite coarse.

 

The rear shims are for toe-in (and wheel centres), not camber. The front shims are for camber not toe-in...

 

As you've seen in Buckeye, the rear camber can be set only by changing the notch brackets &/or their configuration.

This also changes the ride height.

The interdependency of these things can be about as much fun as adjusting the front window glass.

 

First, do you have the Moss camber gauge? It's not as mickeymouse as it might appear from the pics, it has a long vial on which you can easily read 0.1 degree.

And you know there are geometry values in the brown bible in 57.65 (I think it's 65) for laden and kerb (unladen...)

 

Permit me to illustrate how your process might go be summarising my own situation:

One the rear... I have unladen left side 0.8 pos, right side 0.6 neg. This looks and is dreadful, so I can't quite imagine your 3.5 neg...

I want zero camber unladen.

 

I have just bought adjustable brackets which are well worth while. So far fitted to the left only, where trying to wind off the pos left camber I found I couldn't completely do it, and the ride height was going up and up. This is not good. (I have an open thread about this which I haven't closed because I'm still in process.)

 

Investigated, and found the inner end of the left chassis leg is about 3/16" up relative to the outer end.

This will aggravate pos camber on the left.

This leg has an old repair, I suspect it may have sagged in the past.

 

I also bought another trailing arm (from TR Shop) and measured that against my trailing arm, thinking mine might be bent.

I can see that mine has more inclination towards the positive.

The arms are dated within 3 weeks of each other - you know that there was a change in trailing arm config at some point - mentioned in the brown bible I think - so mine may be bent or perhaps there just was variability in them

Unfortunately I can't fit the 'new' one yet, as it has pulled studs which I need to get helicoiled.

 

The right chassis leg is level, so I hope when I get to that side I will be able to wind out the neg camber with the new brackets, without losing too much ride height, but I may need to add spacers, not sure yet.

 

So where am I...

 

On the left, after many experiments I now have a 1.25" lowered spring (free height) plus one 5/8" spacer. This has reduced the pos camber to 0.4 degree and the ride height is OK, so fttb I may leave it at that in expectation that the 'new' trailing arm will enable me to get zero camber with ride height equal both sides.

The lowered spring is 420lb, I am however going to try a heavier spring - 510lb - as I suspect it will be a better match for the full-length spring on the right - I shall have to check that - and I need to limit the rear travel because there is only 2.25" clearance betwen tyre and rear arch.

With the 510lb spring I may be able to remove the spacer from the left side to get rid of all the pos camber, and then wind up the ride height a little on the adjustable bracket.

 

On the right, in addition to the full-length spring, I think I will need one or even two 5/8" spacers because as one increases the pos camber, the ride height reduces, and it's already low on that side. On the other hand I don't know yet which notch brackets I have in there nor in what configuration.

They are likely to be non-standard, as were those on the left.

 

So, what I would say to you, is buy the adjustable brackets, they are well-made and easy to use, there are Forum threads on them.

Check your trailing arm(s) in case of bends.

Be prepared to be creative with spacers and springs.

If you don't have one, a Gunson Trackrite can do your toe-in, only £50.

At the front, yes have a go with the shims, but get the Moss gauge first. Nothing to prevent you making up your own thinner shims if you find the standard ones are too coarse.

 

This may all take you a while. I planned to do the camber and tracking in a day - two weeks now, not finished...

But personally I think it's worth sorting yourself, as a normal garage may be able to set the values on a car which is problem-free, and I'm sure the one Harry recommends is fine, but a generalist is unlikely to pinpoint problems or find solutions if there are other issues to be dealt with, such as on my car and perhaps yours.

 

Or of course you could throw money at it, and just take it to a specialist... Not quite the thing, eh what?

Best of luck..

 

Ivor

[Richard Crawley]

So where am I...

Hi Ivor

I didn’t cover the rears for Robin as there are on-going threads as you say. It’s very interesting to read the things you’ve tried & conclusions your coming to since I posted my musings on your problems; do keep posting feedback!

 

One thing I am interested in is the trailing arms; it’s the second time I’ve heard recently that there are 2 different types but I’ve been unable to confirm this. The information I have is that although the Triumph saloons & Stag were different, the arms were common across TR4A, TR5/6 &, as far as I can see, all appear to have the same part number so I would be interested if you could enlighten me!

[andy p]

Forgive my ignorance, while were on the subject - is negative camber when the "top" of the wheel protrudes outwards more than the "bottom" - I have this scenario at the front so I assume adding a shim or two to the lwr wishbone brackets (none are present) might correct this...?

 

Regards

AndyP

[Richard Crawley]

Forgive my ignorance, while were on the subject - is negative camber when the "top" of the wheel protrudes outwards more than the "bottom" - I have this scenario at the front so I assume adding a shim or two to the lwr wishbone brackets (none are present) might correct this...?

 

Regards

AndyP

No, other way around; + camber means the top sticks out more than the bottom; not good! Negative camber means the bottom sticks out more than the top; good up to a point !

[david ferry]

Robin,

 

This topic comes up every so often and causes various comments as I believe some of the instruction manuals are not terribly helpful on the topic.

 

Too much negative camber on TR4a, 5 and 6 front wheels MAY be the result of fitting the upper fulcrum pins the wrong way around.

 

Have a look at the upper fulcrum pins and check that they are the right way around. It is so easy to fit them the wrong way around.

 

As it is only on one side of the car, you may find that you have one fitted correctly and one not.

 

The fulcrum pin should 'curve' away from the top shock mount on the suspension turret, and 'curve' towards the centre line of the car.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

If not, and if needs be, take a picture from above the turret and fulcrum pin and post it here for comments!

 

Good luck

 

Regards

 

David

Edited June 15, 2008 by david ferry

[Richard Crawley]

Robin,

 

This topic comes up every so often and causes various comments as I believe some of the instruction manuals are not terribly helpful on the topic.

 

Too much negative camber on TR4a, 5 and 6 front wheels MAY be the result of fitting the upper fulcrum pins the wrong way around.

 

Have a look at the upper fulcrum pins and check that they are the right way around. It is so easy to fit them the wrong way around.

 

As it is only on one side of the car, you may find that you have one fitted correctly and one not.

 

The fulcrum pin should 'curve' away from the top shock mount on the suspension turret, and 'curve' towards the centre line of the car.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

If not, and if needs be, take a picture from above the turret and fulcrum pin and post it here for comments!

 

Good luck

 

Regards

 

David

Absolutely; & it has been covered many times here in the past. This particular thorn has caused so many problems for many, years &, as far as I’m concerned, the main culprit was a “Practical Classics” publication many, many years ago. I wrote to the editor at the time (when you had to actually write letters!) & although they replied (I still have the letter somewhere) they never, ever printed a correction/retraction.

 

This didn’t impress me at all as, at the time, they were pretty much regarded as the classic car “bible” for many folks; & because this stuff has now been around for so many years its self perpetuating & everyone still thinks it’s correct! I kept my PC subscription going for many years after but finally pulled the plug around 6 years ago as, much like other classic publications, it no longer had anything to offer for me; but perhaps there’s a little bit of “old fart” syndrome lurking in there somewhere!

[andy p]

No, other way around; + camber means the top sticks out more than the bottom; not good! Negative camber means the bottom sticks out more than the top; good up to a point !

 

Thanks Richard, looks like I'll have to shim the lwr wishbones at some point. I recently overhauled the front suspension and was very careful regarding fulcrum pins and correct wishbone positioning, being a newbie at this type of job....

Appologies Robin for the digression.

 

Regards

AndyP

[88V8]

Trailing arm castings... mmmmm... well being a very newbie at this TRing thing perhaps I am just perpetutating folklore, but I've found one place I read it which is page 30/31 of Williams' Improving book.

He says the change in casting took effect from CP52867/CC61570 and coincided with the change from 1&2 notch brackets to 3&1 notch brackets.

 

I can well believe what you say about the part no - I spent some time in manufacturing, and the purchasing manager, who in my view exerted too much influence over the production process, was in the habit of maintaining the same part no even when new and old parts were not interchangeable, and then complaining to the Production manager when there was no production because the apparently plentiful supply of parts would not fit together !

And as for the poor chaps in the Repair & Warranty dept trying to make sense of it....

 

Still on the trailing arm casting it was quite touching to find the casting date on each trailing arm, obviously handscribed into the sand mould by the guy who made it - nice to see the touch of a human hand in the mass production process.

 

Ivor

[RobinTR6]

Trailing arm castings... mmmmm... well being a very newbie at this TRing thing perhaps I am just perpetutating folklore, but I've found one place I read it which is page 30/31 of Williams' Improving book.

He says the change in casting took effect from CP52867/CC61570 and coincided with the change from 1&2 notch brackets to 3&1 notch brackets.

 

I can well believe what you say about the part no - I spent some time in manufacturing, and the purchasing manager, who in my view exerted too much influence over the production process, was in the habit of maintaining the same part no even when new and old parts were not interchangeable, and then complaining to the Production manager when there was no production because the apparently plentiful supply of parts would not fit together !

And as for the poor chaps in the Repair & Warranty dept trying to make sense of it....

 

Still on the trailing arm casting it was quite touching to find the casting date on each trailing arm, obviously handscribed into the sand mould by the guy who made it - nice to see the touch of a human hand in the mass production process.

 

Ivor

 

right guys sounds like taking out the shims on the front and trying a different setup of brackets on the rear. Will try and use the outer rear bracket upside down or I have a 3 notch bracket so can try hat out as well. The rear chassis outrigger has been replaced so suspect either its not perfectly true of the holes for the bracket are perfectly placed.