French polishing vs stain and varnish

[Jersey Royal]

Hi All,

 

I have a new unfinished walnut dash, and am not sure which would be the best way to finish it

 

I have read an article on VTR which uses modern varnishes. Have also read articles on french polishing using shellac and a lot of elbow grease.

 

Does anyone have any experience of either or any tips.

 

 

Thanks

 

Guy

 

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/fascia-refinishing.shtml

Edited November 22, 2006 by Jersey Royal

[Guest ron]

Guy

French polishing is stone age unless you are restoring antique furniture, modern varnish is easy to use, hard wearing and gives a great finish.

If it's bare wood, stain it whatever colour you fancy, one coat of thinned varnish to soak into the wood, next day a full coat, when dry give that a light rub to remove the nibs and a apply a finishing coat.

You can do as many coats before sanding for the final one as you want to build up a thicker gloss but if it's too thick it chips easy, what I've suggested gives a good finish on hardwood.

Ronseal 'Hardglaze' or tradional 'Yacht' varnish are the best, these modern quick drying ones are easy but not as durable.

Ron

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Ron,

 

Am sure you are correct, will do some experimenting on stains, am told an oil based woodstain in English Walnut would look good. Another product i have heard of is a polymer type varnish called Envirotex, mix up the varoius parts and pour it on, its self levelling.

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[stuart]

Many years ago I used to french polish Jaguar dashboards and dash tops and they didnt last very long in the damp and heat of car interiors. The new dashboards that most of the parts suppliers deal in are finished with a deep layer of two pack lacquer, good shine and long lasting but you have to be very carefull fitting screws and clocks through them. I would have a trawl through the local yellow pages and see if there is anyone in your are that does furniture restorations if you explain the use it is going to have im sure they would be able to suggest the best type of finish for you.

My local one has done several for me and they look much nicer than the normal mass produced versions.

Stuart.

[Richard Crawley]

Guy

I refinished my original dashboard, laboriously applying coat after coat of clear cellulose lacquer, rubbing down with 1,000 W&D every 3rd coat. When finished it looked fantastic; nice colour, deep sheen etc. so I duly wrapped it in tissue & bubble wrap & stored it away in the loft.

 

4 years later I carefully unwrapped it to fit in the final stages of my restoration & to my absolute horror found it had all crazed. I still don’t know what caused it & can only think it was a combination of wrong type of lacquer & too thick or maybe the temperature in the loft caused it. I couldn’t face all that work again so bought a new, pre-finished burr walnut dash & very nice it looks too.

[Jersey Royal]

Richard/ Stuart

 

Too find it crazed must of been devastating especially after all that hard work.

 

Thats something in the back of my mind in that if i take my time finish the dash properly, or how i think its done. And then take the old dash out, which is actually very good anyway, (got new one as a project or spare really) put nice shinny dash in with all the work involved with gauges etc , and after a short while it goes belly up.

 

Will i think take to a professional for their thoughts. It would be very satisfying to do it all myself though.

 

Regards Guy

Edited November 22, 2006 by Jersey Royal

[Richard Crawley]

Your dash was probably painted at normal humidity levels, summer in the loft it dries out, timber shrinks, lacquer doesn't, crazes . . . The same thing happens to lacquered furniture, needless to say.

 

Interesting; perhaps if I'd left it long enough in a humid environment the crazing would have diminished to extent I could have polished it out!

[davehop]

hi Guy

 

The carpenter's point of view. Ron's prettyy much got the procedure down. I would add lightly rubbing down with 120 grit paper after the first coat, then 240 for the next, then 400, 800 etc until you get to your finish coat. If you are using a random orbit sander, I doubt you'll need to go finer. If it's by hand, you might want to try wet n dry for the finish. To prevent moisture movement in the future, I would recomend coating ALL surfaces - the back, edges, and the cut-outs round the dials, and any screw holes - these obviouusly don't need sanding, unless, of course you want the invisible bits shiny! Moisture can get in/leave anywhere! With the diferences in moisture and heat between the front and rear of the dash, I'm amazed that even something with as little movement as plywood survives in these cars as long as it does! Ultimately an oil-based varnish will probably be best, but drying time between coats can be a pain in the proverbial. There are some very good water-based floor varnishes on the market these days, which may be worth looking into as they are very hard wearing, and are closer to being actually "Clear", where oil-based tend to yellow a little. Unfortunatley most of my customers have usually specified matt finishes so I can't recomend a good gloss right now. Most of the major manufacturers make good products. Do look out for something with good UV protection.

 

good luck

 

Dave

[badshead]

I've used this stuff Rustin's Plastic Coating on veneer to good effect - very easy to use with a very hard, high gloss finish.

Edited November 22, 2006 by badshead

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Dave

 

for your carpenters view, not sure when i am going to do it by temperature is anpther factor to consider for the cureing time, isnt it. And also air movement , read somewhere some one put a foil tent over the dash tp prevent any particles dropping on it.

 

Regards

 

Guy.

[Jersey Royal]

Would be interested in your thoughts on the following.

 

The new dash glove box lid does not have a catch hole. The catch hole should be drilled on an angle.

 

Is their an alternative way of fitting some sort of spring loaded catch, so no hole would be required, am not worried about it being lockable?

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

Guy

[Guest ron]

Guy

I refinished my original dashboard, laboriously applying coat after coat of clear cellulose lacquer, rubbing down with 1,000 W&D every 3rd coat. When finished it looked fantastic; nice colour, deep sheen etc. so I duly wrapped it in tissue & bubble wrap & stored it away in the loft.

 

4 years later I carefully unwrapped it to fit in the final stages of my restoration & to my absolute horror found it had all crazed. I still don’t know what caused it & can only think it was a combination of wrong type of lacquer & too thick or maybe the temperature in the loft caused it. I couldn’t face all that work again so bought a new, pre-finished burr walnut dash & very nice it looks too.

 

Richard, I think you used the wrong material, cellulose laquer sets too hard and brittle for a substrata like wood which moves all the time with temperature and humidity, poyurethane varnish has the ability to move with the wood.

 

Guy

I've used that technique I posted earlier for finishing hardwood on boats and steam engine plinths, if you do it properly on a ply dash it will outlast you and the car. Don't use coloured varnish, stain the wood not the varnish! [i use 'Colron' dye] personally I stop when the number of coats glosses the wood but you can do as many as you like to build up a thickness and you have the advantage if the dash is out the car you can do it lying horizontal to avoid runs. If you want a satin finish only do the last coat in satin varnish and the build up coats in gloss.

If you can beg. borrow or steal a proper wood boring auger you should be able to bore the hole for the cubby lock with a brace if you're careful.

Ron

Edited November 23, 2006 by ron

[Jersey Royal]

If you can beg. borrow or steal a proper wood boring auger you should be able to bore the hole for the cubby lock with a brace if you're careful.

Ron

 

 

 

 

Tar Muchly Ron,

[davehop]

Guy

 

If you do go the spring catch route, It's worth checking the HAFELE catalogue online. They're the people who make/supply virtually every furniture catch and fixing you've ever seen. Most of their spring catches are for heavier items but they may have something lightweight for a small cabinet door. You may have to create an account to view it, but that's just a formality. Oh, they also have a very good tech support line for this kind of question. If you go the auger bit route, i'd recomend getting a bit that's VERY sharp or you'll find the veneer breaking out around the cut, or try cutting after the first couple of coats of varnish as these should hold the grain in place. In the past when time constraints/order-of-works has demanded it, I've used very firmly applied masking tape to prevent breakout on the workpiece. Once again, a very sharp tool is required to prevent the tape being dragged round with it. The only problem with this method is then peeling off the tape without taking pieces of grain with it - much patience required! I'll be interested in a picture of the final result!

 

Best

 

 

dave

[Jersey Royal]

I'll be interested in a picture of the final result!

 

 

Dave

 

Thanks for the info, i will look into the company you suggested.

 

I will post a picture of the before and after and method used, hopefully with all the help and advice from yourself and everyone else it wont be a total bodge up.

 

Not sure when i am going to start this job as have acouple of other minor items to attend to.

 

Will keep you posted

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 23, 2006 by Jersey Royal

[robgeev]

Or you could just ask Classic Dash to make one exactly how you want it?

Lovely workmanship, not over quick but worth the wait in my opinion.

 

Rob.

[MikeF]

hi Guy

 

The carpenter's point of view. Ron's prettyy much got the procedure down. I would add lightly rubbing down with 120 grit paper after the first coat, then 240 for the next, then 400, 800 etc until you get to your finish coat. If you are using a random orbit sander, I doubt you'll need to go finer. If it's by hand, you might want to try wet n dry for the finish. To prevent moisture movement in the future, I would recomend coating ALL surfaces - the back, edges, and the cut-outs round the dials, and any screw holes - these obviouusly don't need sanding, unless, of course you want the invisible bits shiny! Moisture can get in/leave anywhere! With the diferences in moisture and heat between the front and rear of the dash, I'm amazed that even something with as little movement as plywood survives in these cars as long as it does! Ultimately an oil-based varnish will probably be best, but drying time between coats can be a pain in the proverbial. There are some very good water-based floor varnishes on the market these days, which may be worth looking into as they are very hard wearing, and are closer to being actually "Clear", where oil-based tend to yellow a little. Unfortunatley most of my customers have usually specified matt finishes so I can't recomend a good gloss right now. Most of the major manufacturers make good products. Do look out for something with good UV protection.

 

good luck

 

Dave

 

A fellow down the road from me used to make wood fittings for older cars not just dashboards, and he said pretty much the same thing. He says polyurethane yacht varnish is good for "moderns" like ours, the first coat should be thinned he says to get good penetration and raise grain for flatting off before first base coat, allow plenty of time between coats, always use a sanding block (naturally), control dust and make final finish with Brasso.

I would add: use solvent based (not the low odour low VOC materials,] they may be planet friendly on the [first] application but will not last as long thus needing another go round sooner and wiping out any eco benefit. I take the point on the floor lacquers' clarity , but I'm not so sure they would offer proper or at least permanent protection to wood. I think it is likely they will go milky after a relatively short time as they are not intended as a permanent material even in their day job, Certainlythey are not formulated for the duty cycle a car sees. (temperature humidity cycles and extremes).

I made a "customised" dash from marine plywood for my Spitfire, veneered it and stained it, followed his advise and left it in shed for 3 years till I got round to fitting it. It was OK for another 5 till I sold it on. The wood die I used faded more than I thought it would, but the only thing that was really going off was the cheapo iron on B&Q veneer I used! It was lifting a bit where I had drilled a later hole for an extra light switch. Should have resealed it with more varnish. (Should have used proper veneer)

 

 

Mike.

[roulli]

My dash plywood dashboard is delaminating. The glossy front layer is bended in 2 dimension and would probably break, if I forced to glue it in place again (with clamps). The backlayer is also partly delaminating.

I do not think my board can be refurbished.

Are those new dashboards from Rimmer Bros and Moss etc. really so bad in quality, that you guys are all talking about refurbishing?

 

Cheers

Patrick

[davehop]

Masking tape can be a problem to lift without damaging grain - a dose of meths helps to melt the masking tape adhesive without damaging polyurethane . . .

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Nice one Alec - I'll remember that one

 

Dave

[Guest ron]

My dash plywood dashboard is delaminating. The glossy front layer is bended in 2 dimension and would probably break, if I forced to glue it in place again (with clamps). The backlayer is also partly delaminating.

I do not think my board can be refurbished.

Are those new dashboards from Rimmer Bros and Moss etc. really so bad in quality, that you guys are all talking about refurbishing?

 

Cheers

Patrick

 

Patrick,I don't think there is anything wrong with the Moss/Rimmer dashboards, I've had mine for about 6 years without any problems. I think it's just some people prefer to restore what they've got rather than throw money at it, it's part of the fun of old cars. Unfortunately I had no dash to restore so I hadn't much choice, if yours is delaminating badly you're probably in the same boat.

Ron

[Taffy TR Man]

I re-veneered my dash about 10 years ago and used spray JapLac to very good effect - 5 or six light coats wth sanding and cleaning with white spirits in between each coat. At the same time I coated the spare veneer and this was stored in my shed for years - I eventually used this to veneer over the 'radio slot' in the H section.

 

10 years on it is still spotless and is very scratch resistant.

 

Geoff