Ally Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Hiya Just as we thought that 'KBA' was almost ready for her MOT, she has got the most horrendous water leak out the head gasket . We can't understand why this is, as we carefully replaced the gasket recently and also had the head professionally checked for flatness - it was about perfect. The head was torqued down correctly as per the haynes manual. The water seems not to be getting into the bores just going down the outside of the engine at least. We've had a few problems with this engine to say the least, it would appear to have been rebuilt badly at some point. Should I cut my losses and get a new engine, or is mine fix-able? Has anyone had this sort of leak before? Cheers Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Hi Ally! Can you see where the water is coming out of the head/block join? Could it be coming from the water pump 'hole' at the top of the block? If the head was flat and you've had no indication of overheating issues it seems very bad luck to get leakage in this way Mind you, if you have other evidence pointing towards a bad rebuild it might be worth cutting your losses at this point. How about rebuilding a replacement engine yourself whilst running about in the unit currently fitted (if you can sort the water loss thing out)? Good luck - I've recently put an engine I 'rebuilt' myself into a TR7 and am in the process of getting the rest of the car through its MOT, so it hasn't been properly run yet. It's the first time I've done this sort of thing and, as I've come to the conclusion that, notwithstanding the friendly, high quality assistance and support I've had from members of this forum, I still strongly believe that engine rebuilding has something of the 'dark art' about it ( by which I mean it's not just a question of simply following the instructions!) then I'm probably not the best person to take advice from! Anyway, I'm sure others out there will be able to offer more credible help Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted July 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 (edited) Thanks Kevin I'm sure you know more about TR7 engines than I do! Can you see where the water is coming out of the head/block join? Yes, we can see where the leak comes out from, definately not the water pump I'm afraid! I think it's the plain old bad luck thing If you look at the engine sideways on from the driver's side of the car, then the leak is on the side of the head closest to you, towards the windscreen end. Maybe about 3 inches in from that end? It's right under the inlet manifold, so very hard to see. I'm not sure if I dare rebuild this engine.....we have found so many bodges! And I've not really got the facilities to do it in either, with a small garage, no workbench and everything is really dusty. Don't want to get muck in the clean engine! I think it might have to be new engine time...hmm..V8 anyone? I'm being told no by my knowledgeable assistants on that one, as we'd have to change a lot of other things on the car too. Cheers Ally Edited July 2, 2006 by Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest G-REG Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi Ally, Sorry to hear of your bad luck with your engine,if it's a quick fix your after then a replacement engine might be your best bet. I'm currently rebuilding my engine after finding 3 broken piston rings on mine, so all bearings, piston rings,gaskets and seals are being replaced aswell as tidying up the engine bay. My 7 will proberbly be ready for next season as i don't want to rush it, a pain since i'm missing all this lovely weather were having. All the best Greg. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwell Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 But G-Reg.... your's has a roof, hasn't it??? Maxwell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul S Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Ally- Silly question, but are you sure it's not from the inlet manifold? There are waterways in there too-and I've had leaks from it before now, in exactly that place (although was on my 1850 Dolly, I'm assuming the 1998 cc lump has the same waterways...I should really know that, but memory's a bit fuzzy!).... could be worth a check before losing hope??? p.s. if you have to get an engine-hope you have as much luck as I did-an engine for £18.99 ! And it works! well, mostly! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted July 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Ally- Silly question, but are you sure it's not from the inlet manifold? There are waterways in there too-and I've had leaks from it before now, in exactly that place Hi Everyone! Paul - I don't think it's coming out the inlet manifold...I'm going to have another check though, get the manifold off probably. Trouble is, that means I've got to drain the bloomin' cooling system first and also make sure that stupid O-ring up at the water-pump end goes back in OK, or I'll have another leak to deal with! Aargh! Oh well, that's still better than fitting a new engine. I'm sure that my mate Phil who first spotted the source of the leak said he saw it coming out of the head gasket..... G-Reg - I'm getting a feeling that my TR7 might be out till next season too now, like you I don't want to rush repairs only to find that they need re-doing. Rather get it right first time. But mine doesn't have a tin-lid, so I really wish I could get her out in the sun!! Cheers, Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest G-REG Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hi Maxwell, Mine may have a roof, but i can get a glimpse of the sun when i open the sunroof!! It may be the size of a postage stamp, but i know it's there, somewhere!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeff poole Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hi Ally I have had exactly the same problem on my Seven. I thought the leak was coming from one of the hoses under the carbs first, but that proved not to be the case. Then I thought it was one of the core plugs as the water seemed to collect there, but no, the core plug was for the crankcase. Then I made sure the nut securing the pipe beneath the carbs to the manifold was tight enough. I had previously replaced the water pump and thought that I may have either got the o ring on the manifold wrong or the ones attached to the connecting tube. I even double-checked the gaskets on the water pump housing. Having corrected/replaced all of these, it still leaked, not at idle, but after a fast run. I believe the leak (and it is only a trickle) came from the head gasket. I only managed to see it once. In spite of running the engine at highish revs at standstill, this did not produce the symptoms, I guess it really needed to be under load. On mine it is around the right hand carb area. At the moment, I am struggling to get the head off as I have decided the gasket has to be replaced. Naturally, I can't tell you yet whether it has been successful. Good luck with yours, I shall be interested to hear how you get on. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rayjones Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I believe the leak (and it is only a trickle) came from the head gasket. I only managed to see it once. In spite of running the engine at highish revs at standstill, this did not produce the symptoms, I guess it really needed to be under load. Mine is exactly the same, I've only ever seen the evidence, the trail of dried antifreeze, the only cure that has worked so far is my wife being in the passenger seat, which must tell you something about my driving! Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted July 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 The trouble with mine is it leaks LOADS even when idling sat on my driveway. Which does make it easier to see the leak I guess...! Jeff, good luck with the head. We were very lucky with mine in that it came off without a fight, but I have heard of them being total pains in the proverbials. The only trick I have heard is soaking the studs in lots of penetrating oil and employing patience I'm afraid! Cheers, Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeff poole Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hi Ally All I can say is you have been lucky, as in spite of soaking for a few weeks now in WD40, the head has refused to budge. In fact, two of the studs have sheared off (all the others are out) and I am having to resort to destroying the head to get it off! Shame really, as the engine only has 24,000 miles on it. Anyone out there got a decent head they don't need? Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwell Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 the only cure that has worked so far is my wife being in the passenger seat, Ray Ray... Maybe you should lend Jeff your wife for a couple of months.... Maxwell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rayjones Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Ray... Maybe you should lend Jeff your wife for a couple of months.... Maxwell Sounds like it is already too late for that sort of drastic action, and anyway he wouldn't be able to save up for a new head if he had my wife to maintain! I think I will leave sleeping dogs lie as far as my cylinder head is concerned, if it gets worse, which it hasn't in the last five years anyway, I'll try the Radweld trick. For all I know, my cylinder head might be epoxied on! Talking of that, I wonder if anyone has been tempted to try it in pure frustration. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hi Jeff, don't destroy the head until you've tried this, with 1 & 4 pistons at bottom dead centre, feed sash cord type rope in through the plug hole, then turn engine over by hand (no plugs in at all) the cord will compress and should push the head off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hi Jeff, don't destroy the head until you've tried this, with 1 & 4 pistons at bottom dead centre, feed sash cord type rope in through the plug hole, then turn engine over by hand (no plugs in at all) the cord will compress and should push the head off. I have heard of people doing the same using heavy grade oil. I guess the cord is less messy, although I assume using either method you need to ensure the valves can't open (i.e. rocker shaft already removed)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeff poole Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hi Jonlar I did consider that trick, in fact I used it successfully to replace a broken valve spring without taking the head off on my very first Seven in 1982. However, with two studs sheared off, I didn't think it likely to succeed, bearing in mind the angle of the studs. The head is now off and taking into account the amount of wallops it took with a lump hammer, I am pretty certain the rope trick would not have worked. I ended up drilling the head at the inlet manifold side through the aluminium and through the 2 stuck studs close to where they went into the block. You would not believe the pounding the head took from my lump hammer! Needless to say, it is completely ruined (although I do have all the pieces that broke off if anyone is interested!). I also managed to ruin eight drill bits and broke the handle of a 2kg lump hammer! Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwell Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 OUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maxwell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted July 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Ooh dear Jeff...that doesn't sound good. It's a real shame it came to that. Whilst still on the subject of TR7 heads, I have a question about the order you should torque the bolts/studs up in. I have had two bits of advice, both from pretty knowledgeable people, saying different things. One said do it as per the Haynes manual, and the other said ignore that and do it just as you would any other Triumph - in a spiral starting in the middle. Who is right? Or is there no correct answer to this? I'm going to try attacking my head today or tomorrow and see if a good torque-down can cure my irritaing leak before Malvern. Cheers, Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) Hi Ally, don't know the answer to your question about order, but it used to be the norm to start with one of the centre bolts and work outwards and diagonally opposite for most as far as I remember, but I've recently re-built my 405TD's engine, which you do as a spiral outwards - but being stretch HT bolts you torque down (I would always suggest doing this in 10 lb ft stages, irrespective of whichever vehicle it is) to 30, then fully slacken, re-torque to 40, then 60, and then + 220º (again I did this in 3x 60º and 1x 40º stages - and touch wood, seems A1) - I would also strongly suggest that you slacken each bolt/nut, as you can get a false torque if they're sticky or dried out. With the head bolts for the 405, the bolts are use once and replace because they are the stretch type, there was also a good size sachet of Moly grease supplied with them - so this type obviously need greasing before application - it's also been said that you shouldn't grease things before torquing as you can over-torque .................... I don't know if this has helped or further confused the issue? Personally, I always soak paper type gaskets in engine oil, and apply Castrol LM grease to all gaskets before fitting, and don't get leaks nor any grief when separating years later, I avoid sealants like the plague. Edited July 10, 2006 by jonlar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wayne S Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Hi Ally, I remember replying to your post ages ago when you asked for advice on using a TR7 as a daily driver. Im really glad to see that you have bagged yourself one and it looks a corker. Mine used to be triton green before it was 'Grinnalled' in the early nineties, its metallic purple now! Its a real shame your having so much hassle with getting it on the road, I know the feeling of having one after another problems cropping up but stick with it. I must second the opinion in one of the earlier posts suggesting that it may be leaking from the inlet manifold. As previously said, its seems like real bad luck to get a head gasket leak after all the work thats gone into it. The gasket that sits between the inlet manifold and the head can be a bit awkward to seal due to the amount of torque you cant get onto the inlet manifold bolts, especially that nasty one towards the front that no spanner fits!! Also, it can slip around if your not careful when your replacing the manifold due to the amount of faffing required to get that o-ring lined up, six hands are required!! If I remember rightly, there are holes in the head that dont seem to have much purpose and are sealed only by that gasket, I think the gasket has a sort of tail on it that covers this up. Could it be that leaking? Oh and I had a head gasket blow earlier in the year, my studs came out with plenty of patience WD40 and expert tuition. When I torqued it down again I folllowed the Haynes manual as it seems most logical. Dont forget to keep checking them and re-torquing periodically for the next 500 miles or so. There seems to be a great following of TR7s up in the north-east. I was up in Durham during the first weekend in June showing the car off at the annual Durham Regatta. They have a fantastic classic car show that runs on the saturday and sunday which is well worth a visit. I was there with mine both days and was the only TR and one of only 3 Triumphs in attendance, so we should put that right next year!!! I have attached some photos to this post for you to have a peek at. Anyway, another few musings from me to add to your list!! Hope you solve it soon and manage to get to Malvern, it is THE weekend in the year to get your TR too. If you see a purple Grinnal TR7, come and say Hi!! Wayne S Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gordon kerr Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 Whilst still on the subject of TR7 heads, I have a question about the order you should torque the bolts/studs up in. I have had two bits of advice, both from pretty knowledgeable people, saying different things. One said do it as per the Haynes manual, and the other said ignore that and do it just as you would any other Triumph - in a spiral starting in the middle. Hi Ally Don't know what the "right " answer to your question is but I recently had my head gasket replaced by Robsport and the guys there said to use the order in the Haynes manual for the 500 and 1500 mile re-torques. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Ok...the bullet has been well and truly bitten, and KBA is going to see the nice chaps at Willow Triumph next tuesday for her MOT. That gives me this weekend to get busy with the torque wrench and fix that stupid leak!! She may get to Malvern yet Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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