carld Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Advice required from peoples previous experiences with regards to 4-2-1 manifolds and sports exhaust systems for the tr4. Happy to hear anything good or bad of all the major manufacturers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Using a S/S Phoenix extractor exhaust manifold mated to their sports exhaust system (available from TR Bitz) - seems to work well enough but I'm not keen on the exhaust note from the stainless compared to mild steel - a bit tinny rather than throaty. Maybe a good compromise would be a mild steel back box. Manifold currently being "wrapped" as we speak cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robgeev Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Would the Phoenix manifold mate up to the standard rear sections? As I recently purchased new centre and rear from SS exhausts in Devon-excellent quality and service by the way. Any starter motor problems-seem to recall some sort of differences can cause issues? Rob/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 I think there may be a difference in diameter, you'd have to check, no starter motor problems though, still have the standard one in place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JRCWeedon Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I have a full blown competition system from Cambridge Motorsports including the 4 branch manifold which fits very well has two boxes and has been tested at 94dcb. The material is SS and has spring clips to hold the two boxes together permitting easy access. It certainly is not restrictive my TR4 produces 170bhp at the wheels. Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rudi Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I have the phoenix 4/1 manifold and single big bore mating system on my TR3A. They have two types of silencers going along, one really straight tru and one with German TUV approval. The latter should be quieter, but having tried both I can say there is not too much of a difference. Still pretty loud but acceptable and to my satisfaction. The new cambridge system by Phoenix, is said to be 95 Db with 2 silencers and longer primary branches. Probably being the best system, but rather expensive compared to the "standard Phoenix system though. But we all know that new developments that can be bought from only 1 source have their price. Up to you if the difference is justified. Phoenix products are certainly among the best, if it is for a 4 pot or a 6 pot engine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 It certainly is not restrictive my TR4 produces 170bhp at the wheels. Bl**dy H*LL John - how'd you manage that? What's the spec? Who built it for you? How much? (if it's not too rude a question!) At what revs? Still tractable? andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JRCWeedon Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Its an 89mm with carillo rods standard tuftrided crank revs to 6500rpm with nothing under 2700rpm which makes it difficult in heavy traffic but I do use it on the road. Most of the bits came from Classic Racecraft including the cam and I put it together - also it has 48DCOE Webers Lightened flywheel Lumenition ignition JE forged pistons Roller rockers Cambridge Motorsport full race but quiet exhaust system. The head is a Moss aluminium one but heavily modified by an Aston Martin R&D oufit with 10.75 CR and the largest valves they could cram in it. If your interested I will be at Castle Combe on Tuesday 12th pm and Saturday 16th all day. Regards John Moss aluminium head but seriously modified by Aston R&D firm with 10.75 CR and the largest valves they could cram into it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Ha ha ! Not tractable enough for my rally car then - I'll see what I get out of mine once the thing is properly set up, have been running it since rebuild (similar bottom end spec to yours) with the valve timing 17 deg out, no wonder I couldn't get more than 100 bhp at the wheels out of it! Would love to be at Castle Combe but have a rally that night , the 061 in Buxton. cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rudi Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Altough off topic here, I would love to see the specs of Andy's engine. Mine has 87 mm Mahle pistons, 300° camshaft (40/80-80/40), stage 3 head skimmed for 9.5/1CR, lightened flywheel 2x40 Webers, phoenix 4/1 big bore exhaust, fully balanced. Very tractable at low revs in spite of pretty hot cam. No idea about the HP though. About the valve timing. I have doubts if mine is correct after changing the engine plate (and removal/refitting of vernier camsprocket). What are the indications when valve timing is not correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 About the valve timing. I have doubts if mine is correct after changing the engine plate (and removal/refitting of vernier camsprocket). What are the indications when valve timing is not correct? I don't know if all these problems were related to the valve timing, but it lacked power below 3,000 revs and above 5,200 revs, spat back thro' the carbs and overheated easily. We'll see what improves when I get it back, esp. on the rolling road. I had twin 45DCOE's on but had already decided to revert to twin HS6's before I found out about the valve timing problem - now I'm wondering if this was a hasty decision ... Andy PS You probably want to see John's engine, not mine - can you put a photo up on here John? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade-TR4 Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Should've mentioned that my TR4 has the Moss 4-2-1 Falcon system in mild steel. Sounds great, bugger to fit. It's a straight through with a single (token) back box. I'll probab;y go for a larger bored SS system when the 89mm engine's in. cheers Ade PS - watch the paint on these manifolds: watch it it catch fire that is. Heat proof? not really. I hope Moss have sorted that one out as it was a little dangerous! It was very close to trashing my brand new respray and wiring loom. NOT pleased at the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade-TR4 Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Sorry for the weird intro to the above posting - it's lost a reply! which was to say that I'm building an 89mm engine of almost indentical spec to john's. So if you photos of the componenets the let me know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rudi Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Andy what is your camshaft profile like? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GSKTR4 Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Andy what is your camshaft profile like? Hi Rudi - I have a Kent cam - this is the spec. Part number : TR4-5 Description: Sports 'R' Rev Range: 2200 - 7000 Cam Lift: 7.16mm Valve Lift: 10.74mm Inlet 10.69mm Exhaust Duration: 280 Degrees 37/63 73/27 Valve Timing: 103 Degrees Valve clearance: 0.56mm 0.61mm Link to Kent Cams Cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robgeev Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 For information-prices from Cambridge Motorsport-pleasant helpfull people. Not sure if prices are sensible though-your comments please. ********************************************* Hi Rob Here's the prices for the Exhaust components you enquired about EX4500 TR4 SS Manifold 4 - 1 inc collector £269.95 EX4600 TR4 SS System twin box quiet 95db £261.42 EX4601 TR4 SS System twin box (straight through ctr box) £190.11 EX4602 TR4 SS System single box £138.00 If you were looking to purchase two complete systems including manifold I will extend to you a 10% discount. Kind regards Simon Herbert Cambridge motorsport Ltd 01767 677969 ph 01767 677026 fx Suppliers of: JE pistons, CARRILLO rods, HAWK brake pads, STOPTECH Brake kits, EDGE startermotors & alternaters & RACEPROVEN alternators Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rudi Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Prices I paid in 2003 on the continent for the "standard" 4/1 phoenix manifold: 216 £ incl VAT and the big bore straight trough single silencer system (incl. link pipe) : 144 £. The diff. with the offered Cambridge system is that the manifold branches are slightly longer. This should give better torque at low to mid range revs. The diff. with the silencer system from Cambridge should be checked out. I know they have a system with spring loaded joints and skidded boxes that certainly offer advantages in (rally) competition. This is probably the EX4600. The system I have is probably same as EX4602. I am not sure if the longer branches really are worth to pay the higher price, as the diff. is pretty much. If I had to buy again I would go for their new twin box quiet and skidded system, and if possible (for price reasons) with the "standard" 4/1 phoenix manif. (but I guess this combo is not possible due to too short link pipe between manifold and interm. box). The system being "quiet" and skidded would to me be the best arguments to pay more. Although I do not mind a sporty exhaust noise, the straight trough single box is pretty noisy with a tuned engine and might cause problems with too high Decibels (is it 96 in the UK?) at rally scruteneering in the UK. For pictures also check www.british-car-parts.de and go to "auspuffanlagen" (exhaustsytems). System I have is BCP108 and BCP108/2. Hope this helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Im interested to hear more on these engine specs guys, particularly cams, heads and tractability. Ive just bought a steel crank, light flywheel and a set of carillo rods from Steve Hall at TREnterprises and will make a start with Steve building it in November. I also have a set of 89mm pistons and liners on the way. With this box of (expensive) bits in mind I need to build a quick and tractable rally engine. I thought of aiming at about 170 bhp, 160ish ft lbs torque at about 4200 to 4500 revs. I have a Tony Lindsey Dean cam which reputed to do this ..... but I havent seen anything with it in. Steve also has one - John what cam has John Wood done for you ?? why 48mm webers (what jets ..?) - roller rockers ?? how mad have you gone ?? How reliable is the alloy head and why did you choose to go down this line ?? Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade-TR4 Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hi Tony, I'm interested too as I'm going to be putting a fast road 89mm engine together, without the steel crank, but with Carillos etc etc (no alloy head though). I would think that a rally car will need low end guts rather than screaming top end. I was shown some racetorations power/ torque curves for some of their cams (the later version of the 777, called something else now - can't remember what, seemed to have a great compromise, especially with 89mm pistons). It may be an idea to see curves similar for the cams your considering. What about 42DCOEs? Cheers Ade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JRCWeedon Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hi guys Tony- I don't think you will get 170bhp at the wheels (about 200 at the flywheel) and have a tractable engine mine will only pull over 2700rpm. I went for the aluminium head because my iron one cracked and I didn't want to buy a second hand one have it crack tested and find it was scrap. This was in the early days of these heads and it made sense to me to go for the weight saving although since I have heard stories about head gaskets etc. All I can say is that I have had no problems at all and Jon Wood described it as the best head he had seen (he didn't prepare it) in terms of gas flow etc. It has a CR of 10.75 and very large valves. I went for the 48DCOEs since I was looking for ultimate power coupled with the Classic Racecraft full race cam. Don't ask the spec Jon is very protective about his profiles! Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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