Throckmorton Challenge, 15th October

[Nigel 628]

 

Click to enlarge. I can't work out how you put lots of big pics in a post without exceeding the 500k limit, my computer skills are worse than my driving!

Edited October 18, 2011 by Nigel 628

[lesmcguffog]

Nigel still adjusting to day events and driving at steady speeds while we plot, driving on tests was 100% improvement and even though he beat himself up a few times by overdoing the h/brake, you guys in the 4's showed that there is no need for hyrdaulic handbrakes that John R says is needed in his Escort and Ron in the Anglia says he wants one to make it possible to h/brake.

 

Nigel thanks for a good day, don't get despondent, we were in the most competitive class, look how little damage done to your car, the chance to enjoy the scenery and the price of events, who needs stage events!!

 

thank you and look forward to 2012

 

Well done Tony and Ryan

 

les

[Tr4Tony]

Well said Les - our class was very very very competative and if you look at the overall scratch test times all 3 of the TR4's were usually in the top 10 for each of the 18 tests ...... now that is consistent and sustained high speed driving, which very few other marques of car could cope with.

[Ryan]

All good points really. As I have discussed with people before, sometimes what these day rallies need to even them up is some ultra tough and competitive navigational clues. All the HRCR rounds are slightly weighted one way or another and surely aren't meant to be purely driver or navigator based. Events like the Throckmorton though were very driver based on the scratch results. There is nothing worse for a navigator than cruising around some tests in an average car, quite often with an average driver, getting to the road section then finding that everybody has the route on the map with simple speed changes 2 or 3 timing points (due to marshalling problems) and no way of gaining back time that the top test crews have over you.

[Tr4Tony]

Agreed .... and thats where the night sections on some of the better 'day' rallies came in because it makes the road sectins appreciably harder on both the crew ..... perhaps we need to lobby for some later starts and later finishes so tht we can get some more night eventing into the calender ?

[Nigel 628]

The class improvement system initially fooled me into thinking our placings were worse than they were hence my disappointment; on scratch we didn't do so badly as it turned out. It was only my fifth regularity rally so why we were put in the Masters class I have no idea, but it was worth it to have the three TR4's running together!

 

The tests were great fun in the TR; I usually use first and second gears, but on the Throckmorton I was seeing third on most of them, and on at least one test foot to the floor in top gear. Loved it..... though normally I'd be wearing a helmet and flameproof overalls for this sort of thing!

 

I appreciate Ryan and Tony's views on the navigation, and Les always says he prefers a more challenging route, but the dilemma is, how do you make it easy enough to encourage new blood into the sport whilst keeping the experts on their toes? I often wonder how organisers can describe their event's navigation as being 'easy to follow for novice crews but still challenging for the experts' - all things to all men?

 

I am perhaps a bit simplistic which is why I love stage rallies - instead of hurting your brain with all these tests to remember and tricky navigation to cope with, you just take it out altogether and drive what you see as fast as you dare. The clock doesn't lie. OK, they are expensive and hard on the car (I do notice the scenery when I'm in danger of hitting it.....) but for me nothing else gives the same buzz. However I have been really enjoying the road rallies as well, especially the greater opportunity for on-event socialising, and it's still possible to do both with the same car. I will be back next year......but perhaps not in the dark, Tony! It was OK in the 70's Motoring News era when my eyes were a lot younger.............

 

Nigel

[Tr4Tony]

Im old too .... just get some bigger spotlamps !

 

The Ross Traders is usually a good example of a rally thats easy enough for everyone to get round and enjoy it, but with a couple of twists that usually sort out the top navigators ..... although this year poor Richard had a flutter at the first IRTC and we arrived in a cloud of dust about 7 minutes late after a scenic tour in the wrong direction, this after we went through the route as we had it and were convonced that we had it right!

 

I definately dont enjoy the events with mund bending trickery and crossword puzzle type stuff and an example of this is the Cloverleaf, which is cancelled this year .... make your own mind up on that one.

 

The other thing is that complicated navigation and novices or indeed experienced crews (particularly) getting lost means getting back on time, which means driving quickly perhaps in some not so suitable sections of the route or off route, and this is where PR problems occur (justifiably usually). On the odd occasion a prang occurs and Im definately against that sort of thing.

[thescrapman]

Last years Cloverleaf wasn't quite as bad as it's reputation would have you beleive, I though the Ross Traders had been more of a challenge.

 

I can probably send a copy of last years Cloverleaf clues to anyone if I can find them.

 

Definately a bit more challenging, but not like doing the Telegraph Cryptic Crossword (at 27mph in a noisy little tin can)

 

I think the hardest bit was the speed changes dependant on the width of the road!

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Dazzer]

I think its a difficult balance to get right with tests/navigation if it's too test orientated it becomes a performance rally with an unfair byass towards more powerful machinery. We enjoy plot & bash as it can be a great leveller and you never know what to expect. Enjoyed the Ross Trader and look forward to trying the Cloverleaf. Was not impressed with the Throckmorton, even though we got a reasonable result 7th overall by the weird HERO reckoning, but in the real scratch world 9th. Was not impressed with HERO as an organisation and would try to avoid this one next year.

 

The actual tests were OK but the reg'y was unimaginative, all the marshalls were lovely, (bar the weirdo... Nigel knows who I'm talking about) Unfortunately all peripheral organisation was non existent. I can honestly say although we never stopped laughing, it did turn from the sublime to the ridiculous and in this respect it was the worst run event of any type we've ever been on. I forgot to mention we were threatened with being thrown off the site before the competition even started! to give you a flavour of the event if you missed it we were then 'locked out' on the evening... and then 'locked in' the following morning! You couldn't make it up.

 

In my opinion it's not really up to HRCR standards and not a good advertisement for other HERO events which I understand are excellent.

 

My vote this year for best catering goes to the lunch time halt on the Clwyd rally most definitely a Michelin star nominee.

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[Tr4Tony]

Sorry to hear you didnt like this one Darren .... not comments I recognise with the HERO setup, but worth talking to Peter Nedin himself if you feel agrieved. He's a helpful guy in my experience and he will be interested if not disappointed to hear what you have to say Im sure.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Dazzer]

Hi Tony

 

Yes we did have a word with Peter and he did say he would take on board our experiences for next year.

 

We enjoyed the tests and it was well run in this area... the regularatory felt more akin to a run rather than a rally, perhaps aimed at the less experienced? Although as is sometimes the case there's always a wrong slot or assorted equestrian/farm machinery to put a spanner in the works!

 

All the best

 

Darren

[Tr4Tony]

Not to mention the horses .....

[Nigel 628]

That puts the finger on it. Twice we were bang on time when horses (there was a local point-to-point on much of the morning's road section) got in the way and lost us loads of time.... you have to respect horses and do the good PR bit but it's frustrating when you are trying to do well on a rally and it's all ruined by forces outside your control. I've only done three road rallies this year and had the lot; milk tankers, tractors, useless weekend drivers, cyclists, walkers etc.....it so often comes down to luck, not skill.

 

However, it works both ways. I absolutely hate driving at some silly regularity speeds (20 mph in 30 mph areas on the Throckmorton, for example) presumably for misguided PR reasons, when what we are actually doing is holding up the queue of ordinary motorists following behind and getting annoyed at these stupid old bangers messing up their journey. I'm sure there is a law about not progressing along the highway at a reasonable speed and keeping up with normal traffic so maybe we are in danger of being booked for driving too slowly.

 

What with the (Welsh) night road rallies still fielding mega-fast Escorts at silly fast speeds, and historic regularity rallies doing the opposite and clogging up the roads at silly slow speeds (or as Tony rightly says, ending up lost thanks to mensa route clues then driving like lunatics down narrow lanes in daylight to get back on time) surely the general public could not be blamed for seeing any form of motor sport on open public roads as antisocial.

 

No such problems on the tests of course but although fun, they favoured the more powerful cars, a bit like the 12 Caerwent 'tests' on the Leukaemia Rally which were just like a stage rally with the occasional detour round a cone.

 

Nigel, in a grumpy mood today...........

[TorontoTim]

I totally understand your frustration, Nigel - being held up when you are accurate on a regularity is desperately annoying. As you say, it can also lead to potentially dangerous "catching up" once the tractor or whatever has finally gone. I`m sure we`ve all done it and have perhaps been fortunate to get away without serious incident.

 

Just these types of PR concerns here in Canada led to the introduction of Time Allowances (TA). Put simply, a team can claim a certain amount of "free" time at a control/check-point (in specific amounts: 1 min 30 seconds, 2 minutes 30 seconds, etc.). We are given a budget of 19.5 minutes for the whole rally and while use of the first TA is free, each subsequent one carries a penalty of half a minute. The problem with THIS approach, of course, is that a team can make a mistake or pull over to work on the instructions and still clean that section just by claiming a TA - and I've used them for both the "force majeur"/unavoidable-hold-up reason as well as the lost/tricky instructions reason.

 

There are some of the old-timers here who HATE TA's and think that the approach used in the UK is correct; others see their PR neccessity (and competitive benefit) and embrace them. Truth is, I don't think there's a perfect solution.

 

However, if we're going to rally on public roads during the day I have to say that allowing TA's (here, at least) and losing the "purity" of rigid/constantly live timing like the current UK method is worth the price if the alternative is someone being caught speeding in a rally car or, far worse, having an accident with a civilian. And we then just have to play by the rules as written - even if it means that teams can get away with less than perfect performances.

 

Personally, I'd rather rally at night on well-PR'ed routes like we used to in Wales - and we do have one all night rally here in the middle of February. But Ontario doesn't have any widespread rallying heritage, so we're somewhat restricted to being public-friendly.

 

Oh for the UK's historic rallying scene.................

[Tr4Tony]

Get it on a boat Tim ! for the 3 Legs of Man in March .... closed roads on the Isle of Man and last time a fierce night section on private land where I had to be on the peg all the time to stay on time ! and we were very close to the edge of our minute on occasion and Rob Kiff was supersharp in the left seat.

 

Its a delicate balance that organisers have to tread at the end of every event I feel grateful that weve had a days rallying because of their efforts. The PR issue is hugely important, but here I think that the majority of the public want to see 'old cars' like TR's out on the road. The Escorts and moderns dont get the same love and respect somehow.