Originality issues

[Guest ARhodes]

Here is a question from the US.  Our national level concours judging reference book is very thorough and fairly definitive.  I undertook completion of the restoration of my father's 4A CTC73336-L.  This car was very original.  As far as I know no significant replacements were made for repair work , and the only change from the factory-delivered version was the addition of a Les Leston steering wheel by the dealer.  Otherwise, I am fairly certain that the apearance and equipment on the car are "stock".

 

After most of the resoration was done I finally got a copy of the Concours Judging Guidelines.  My car differed from the standards in several ways.  One was the presence of a fiber disc on the underside of the bonnet to buffer the bonnet from the thermostat housing.  This has since been found to be an alternate fitment from the factory, so so we believe.

 

There are three other items.

1) my 2-speed windshield wiper motor body is painted crinkle black.  The judging standards indicate that ALL the 2-speed motors were painted hemmered silver.  Is this correct?  Why would mine be black?

 

2) There is a vinyl cloth boot/gaiter present which covers the rubber bellows on the shifter.  The judging standards say there should only be a bellows, not the vinyl boot ever.  I think that late cars (i.e. over 70,000?) were equipped with the boot.  Is there any evidence to support my hypothesis?

 

3) My car has full length rubber mats in the footwells, without any carpet.  The judging guide says that all the 4A's should have carpets with a rectangular rubber heel area.  The Spare Parts Catalog might indicate that these rubber mats were optional, but I have not been able to see the SPC to verify this.  Is it known whether any 4A'a were equipped with these rubber mats?

 

Tony Rhodes

spamiam@comcast.net

[Dale Moore]

Hi Tony

My 4a is in the 64000s so a bit early for your comparisons, however my UK spec car has most of its original bits. the last time it was on the road prior to me buying it in 98 was 1974. I have no reason to believe that when it was put into storage, it was complete and original.

There is no fibre disc on the bonnet, only a felt or fibre infill between to outer skin and the stiffening member just to the rear of the headlight bulges.

The gearstick boot is the strange two piece rubber thingy, which sort of goes together, with the bottom bit going into the fibre gearbox cover.

The wiper motor is indeed black, or at least the main body is, the gear casing and endplate are plain aluminium.

The car came with its original set of carpets, with the rubber heel pad, these were replaced on the rebuild, no rubber mats came with the car. Maybe some of these differences were only found on export cars?

 

Regards

Dale

[robgeev]

I strongly agree with Alec, this concourse judge book should be shredded and stuffed, these cars are for fun, not to try and be better than when they left the factory.

 

Just enjoy the car for what it is-lots of fun.

 

Rob.

[Guest mrodbert]

Alec, Rob, - Come on guys give Tony a break. He's found the UK TR site and asked a reasonable question and got disparaging responses by a 2 to 1 majority. Hardly gives people the impression we run a friendly, open, inclusive club and definitely not the thing to say to someone whose probably spent a lot of his adult life restoring the thing.

 

Just because concours d'elegance competition isn't to your taste doesn't mean that everyone has to agree. At least he's competing with his car, rather than going down the pub once a month in it. And its is a lot more interesting than Formula One right now.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather gnaw my own arm off than enter a concours, but everyone has a different view on how to get the most out of their TR. When we bought our TR4 the only thing stopping us entering a concours was the fact that nothing was standard, there was/ still is rust everywhere, and someone had painted the boot interior with a can of Dulux and a paintbrush. Its amazing how many different "whites" you can get on one car. I found out that the gear knob was standard but I changed it.

 

If you look at the Rallying forum you'll see my preference is for hare-arsing around the countryside trying to read a map and slapping our non-standard-option sumpguard against barely metalled roads; and there are plenty of people who will tell me that what I do is sader than a Marcel Marceaux lesson on the 100 silent ways to do a sad face. We just have to accept that any interest in cars from a manufacturer that hasn't made any in a quarter of a century qualifies you for the full sado, get-a-life anorak with gold epaulettes.

 

Tony - I'm sorry I can't answer your questions, but I hope you get a decent answer from somewhere; and keep enjoying the TR anyway you want to.

 

Rodders

 

PS - There was a concours on the Lands End to John O'Groats rally I did last year, but that was won by a Daimler Ferret armoured car. I think the emphasis was on the "et D'Equipment" bit of Councours Elegance et D'Equipment

[jean]

Speeking about originality, one qustion. Is a TR assembled in a different country than U.K. an original car or a replica. It goes without saying that cars assembled outside U.K. very often fitted with parts originating from local markets, like relays, light units, shock absorbers etc....

Further CKD cars assembled at the beginning of the year were often build with parts dating from the previous model year. This is obvious if you consider that the crates left the factory long before the cars were put together.

Jean

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Tony

 

Just to add a little here - I own CTC 78635, on of the last UK RHD cars and I have a huge amount of paper and pictures from its early days. I have rebuilt this car now and its far from original, but I can offer you some comfort on the 4 matters you query.

 

1.  The 2-speed Lucas DR3a wiper motor originally came painted silver and I have had this discussion with a number of people, including LUCAS technical at the time and at least 3 reconditioners who were  all LUCAS or OE supplier employees. The general rule is the the OE supplied ones came in hammered silver finish on the bodies, with the LUCAS B90 reconditioned ones coming with a black crackle finish body. Im 99% sure that this is right and Ive seen lots of original cars with silver painted motors, bought a few recond ones in black etc. I suggest that your concours guy is right in what he says. Interestingly the reconditioners over here ( or certainly those who know their stuff) now paint the motor bodies in hammered silver in order to replicate the OE finish. The question is should a recind motors with a later date be silver or is it concoursly correct for it to be black in accordance with a late date ???? pipe and smoke it comes to mind ....

 

2. Bonnet disc - never seen this before and totally convinced that its not original. may be a dealer fitment if the car had sound deadening to stop the bonnet rattling - I have seen this before.

 

3. carpets and mats - sounds unusual. My car had carpets with rubber inserts as set out by others. This is I believe original. As far as I know the Tmats were a special order item  replacing the front floor and bulkhead carpets.

 

4. Gearlever gauntlet - My 4a came with lots of TR5 parts on it (including black columnstalks etc.) and I would suggest that there is a possibility that yours may have had this too but you are nearly 8,000 cars before the TR5 and TR250 so its unlikely. Again maybe if the car was rattly it could have been added by the dealer, particularly if the carpets were black.

 

Regards

 

Tony