complex road rally car prep regulations

[Dazzer]

Hi Guys

 

A few points I'm trying to address whilst preparing our other car for road rallies. It is a Triumph (2000 Mk1).

 

Has left me almost looking to just participate in stage rallies which are not covered by the same bureaucratic rules.

 

Firstly the car has a webasto roof... which I've been told has to go for road rallies... so my question is could I seal it with a sheet of alloy from the inside, leaving the webasto in place, or does it have to go altogether?

 

Secondly I quite fancied the black bonnet which I've been told is also a no no for road rally. Yet I've seen escorts and other makes with some form of works paint jobs on a couple of road rallys recently.

 

Lastly and I can understand this, there is no form of advertising allowed. However if it was to replicate a works car of the period, matching the decals exactly, would this still be excluded?

 

Thank you for any info.

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[john.r.davies]

Dazzer,

Before you spend any money, check very carefully with the club you intend to rally wth. (With whom you will rally?).

Unbelievable, but cars with more than four cylinders are prohibited from taking part in rallies.

See the MSA Blue Book, Section H (Rallying) Reg 106:

"106. Vehicle engines must have:

(a) A maximum of four cylinders."

 

This was introduced, I am told, because such engines were deemed to be noisier than those with four, and this was a bit of PR in the face criticism of the noise made by rallies. Sorry.

 

On the sunroof, see the same Book, G129.

That's a racing reg, but the rally regs refer to this one as the standard:

"129. Glass sunroofs are not Permitted. Sunroofs may

be of a non-shattering solid material other than glass.

The sunroof aperture may be closed by solid material

permanently fitted in place. Exceptionally, vehicles fitted

with fabric, folding type sunroofs are Permitted,

providing they are fitted with a full roll cage as in

C©-33-36. Any sunroof must be firmly secured in the

closed position.

 

John

Edited May 31, 2009 by john.r.davies

[TorontoTim]

Excuse me if I'm pointing out something you are well aware of, but there are different regs for Historic road rallies vs. "modern" road rallies - e.g. the restriction on 4 cylinders, single choke carbs, etc. Although special dispensation might be made, normally your 2000 wouldn't be allowed on "modern" events.

 

Historic regs are quite different and would allow many of things you are talking about.

[john.r.davies]

Historic regs are quite different and would allow many of things you are talking about.

 

Quite right, Tim, that's why you need to consult the rally organising club.

They, not you, need to apply to the MSA for a "discretionary waiver" (See H.123)

If they expect a full rally, they may not be moved to bother with all that.

 

John

[Dazzer]

Thank you John and Tim

 

I think the confusion has arisen because of the way the rules are interpreted... Thank you for the clarification on the folding sunroof. Yes the 2000 has a role cage so it would appear I can leave the roof intact but closed.

 

We last competed in the TR4 which as we know is four cylinder, but there where a few 2000/2500 Triumphs and in our next road rally in France there are a number of Jags XK120 and a V12 E type! So the rules would appear to be flexible and maybe very different from country to country.

 

I'll consult the club as I move forward.

 

I have to say the TR4 is a great car to compete in and if I where to do it again the only improvements I would recommend fitting would be a salisbury LSD, a substantial sump guard and I would also re position the handbrake.

 

Thanks once again

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[lesmcguffog]

For an engine with more than six cylinders, twin cams and more than 2 carb chokes or twin carbs like SU's the problem comes when you want to do an event which includes night sections.

 

If the car is pre-68 then MSA rules as long as a waiver if applied for in respect of the car by the organisors will allow you to run

 

if it is in Post Historic class then waivers are not available for night events run on a rally permitt

 

thus if you had a 1967 Triumph 2000 you can run on night rallies subject to a waiver being granted, but for a post historic car the option is not available

 

to confuse this further some night events run under navigational permitts, if this is the case as they are not rallies it has been possible to obtain waivers for post-historic vehicles which are not normally eligible to compete to take part

 

yes confusing is the answer

 

 

for most historic day light events such as HRCR rounds and NESCRO events there is no problem obtaining waivers for 6 cylinder cars

 

Les

[Dazzer]

Hi Les

 

Thank you for the further info. Its a 65 2000 so on the right side of where it needs to be to obtain a waiver.

 

I'm also being very careful with the tyre choice, 70 profile I believe is the minimum?

 

Does it need to be a classic tread pattern type, or is that not such a concern.

 

Thanks once again for the info

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[willywonka]

Hi Les

 

Thank you for the further info. Its a 65 2000 so on the right side of where it needs to be to obtain a waiver.

 

I'm also being very careful with the tyre choice, 70 profile I believe is the minimum?

 

Does it need to be a classic tread pattern type, or is that not such a concern.

 

Thanks once again for the info

 

Cheers

 

Darren

 

 

 

Dazzer.

 

Just incase you don't have the MSA Blur Book to hand.

 

I have attached the link to it below.

 

On the question of road rallies as far as I am aware; -

 

A normal road rally run as a national 'B' event will only allow a car with a maximum of 4 cylinders which is running on a single choke for a bank of cams. With a maximum of 2 cams.

So for instance an Escort can run on a 2.0 ltr Pinto with a single weber carb, or with the original injection system as was fitted on the Sierra providing it is still original e.g. not on throttle bodies.

You could not run the same engine on twin weber carbs.

The same car can also run on another manufacturers engine e.g. Vauxhall 2.0ltr 16v Red Top as long as the original injection system is fitted.

 

You could also run a TR7 with a Sprint engine running on twin SU's as they only have one cam, and 16 valves, but you cannot run a standard TR7 running twin SU's.

 

Daft if you ask me, but that is the rule in place.

 

As for the sun roof you can "plate over" the hole in the roof or cover it with adhesive tape to hold the glass together in the event of an accident. You don't have to take out all togther but you may be wise to.

 

It must also have its trim fitted including head lining door cards, and rear parcel shelf if fitted to the original vehicle.

The profile of the vehicle cannot be changed from the standard vehicle e.g. no wide arches unless these were fitted as standard, or bonnet vents.

It must also be one colour or, as with mini's etc the same as it left the factory if it has stripes, or a different colour roof.

 

For navigational events, I don't think any of the above apply as it comes under a different form of rallying.

 

With historic rallys then a waver must be applied for if any thing such as multi carbs or cylinders are being used, as it is covered by the road rally rules.

 

Confusing or what?

 

 

 

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewa...asp?article=646

Edited June 1, 2009 by willywonka

[john.r.davies]

As for the sun roof you can "plate over" the hole in the roof or cover it with adhesive tape to hold the glass together in the event of an accident. You don't have to take out all togther but you may be wise to.

 

willy,

If you have experience of this then fine, but that is a surprizing interpretation of G129,

""129. Glass sunroofs are not Permitted.

Sunroofs may be of a non-shattering solid material other than glass.

The sunroof aperture may be closed by solid material permanently fitted in place."

Does the rollcage part get around the first bit?

 

John

[TorontoTim]

From MY reading of the blue book regs - and looking specifically at Historic Road Rallying, rather than general/modern road rallying - Dazzer's Triumph 2000 falls under section 117 (Historic Category 1 Road Rally Cars); assuming that the event he is to enter runs under a Historic Road Rally permit (which surely covers most/all events under HRCR, CRO, etc. championships).

 

These cars then only have to satisfy the technical regs 108, 109, 110-113 and 114-116. The basics of that means they have to be not too noisy, wear road-legal tyres, have only 4 forward beams (i.e. no auxillary lamps on a 2000), and carry no advertising.

 

As I'm not in the UK any more, I haven't read the blue book in detail for several years, but am I missing something?

[john.r.davies]

TT,

I'm not into rallying, and I'll bow to your experience, but that is why I suggested that dazzer speak to his favoured club for the latest info, and I still do!

John

[Andrew Castell]

Hi Les

 

Thank you for the further info. Its a 65 2000 so on the right side of where it needs to be to obtain a waiver.

 

I'm also being very careful with the tyre choice, 70 profile I believe is the minimum?

 

Does it need to be a classic tread pattern type, or is that not such a concern.

 

Thanks once again for the info

 

Cheers

 

Darren

 

Hi Darren

 

Some events seem to be picky about the tyre profile (the 3 Castles MC is/was very picky about this but not about many other, possibly more important things). Most aren't. Being practical, if you are going to be hammering around less-travelled backroads, you'll probably find that there will be plenty of potholes and other stuff where a relatively high percentage of sidewall will be useful to you. The ability to unstick the tyres on tests also argues for less rubber, although maybe with the 2000 you won't want for power to get the back end loose.

 

I think that there were works Triumph Saloons on some events with the bonnets painted black. The HRCR now frowns on cars dolled up in works-look warpaint (they don't like excessive numbers of lights, stripes, numbers etc. either, but this doesn't matter unless you are a serious competitor because you can still enter their events, you just don't get to play in their overall standings.

 

More generally, I wouldn't pretend to be the most experienced of entrants (step forward, TR4 Tony) but I have found that with Historic events there are the regulations, what the scrute spots and says nothing about, what the scrute doesn't spot, what the scrute spots comments on and lets past and, of course, what your fellow competitors spot and complain about. This last is only likely to a be a factor if you are contending for an impressive result. I've taken the approach of making sure that the safety-specific stuff is complied with and then trying to comply with the spirit of the other technical regulations even if I have sometimes sinned against the precise words (obviously not now that I have the car fully sorted, honest....) - I have not yet been in a position where the car has been refused entry or been penalised for non-compliance with the technical regs, despite the fact that there never seems to be a consistent approach to tyres etc. etc.

 

Hope some of this was useful.

 

A

[TorontoTim]

TT,

I'm not into rallying, and I'll bow to your experience, but that is why I suggested that dazzer speak to his favoured club for the latest info, and I still do!

John

 

Totally agree, John - there is no better answer than talking to the club(s) that are actually running the events and publishing the regs.

[lesmcguffog]

Darren

 

Tyres - as long as 70+ profile okay and not more than 1" wider than standard or proven optional extra perfectly acceptable

 

I do know from talking to a senior HRCR person that they are currently negotiating with the MSA on profiles because of the problem with limited choice of 70+ profiles

 

paterns do not matter as long as road legal, on events you will see mixture of specialist tyres from tarmac types through to aggressive winter paterns

 

-----------------

 

sunroofs - the rules mentioned relate more to stage rallying. the MSA rule book only does not mention sunroofs in tech rules for historic road rallies or road rallies. A rule like this would stop a lot of people cometing in soft tops like the Stansfields on Sunday in their 3a on the Viking.

 

In the safety rules, it does suggest for those with glass sunroofs they fit some adhesive type film which stops them shattering.

 

For most road rallies canvas / glass sunroof should not be a concern

 

------------------------------

 

when you enter most historic rallies they will ask if you need to apply for a waiver, at this time you would notify them

 

--------------------------

 

rules you need to refer to are mentioned in TTs reply and are in section H of the MSA blue book

 

http://www.msauk.org/custom/asp/home/default.asp

 

in case you don't have the blue book as I know most of the events you are doing don't need a licence i have sent you a PM with copy of all section H - remember ignore all the rules for stage rallying, you are looking at rules for road and historics

--------------------

if you go onto the team trumph website you can email them and ask what they have done to their 2000 - see link. They are all regular competitors on various historic events

http://www.teamtriumph.co.uk/index.html

[john.r.davies]

sunroofs - the rules mentioned relate more to stage rallying. the MSA rule book only does not mention sunroofs in tech rules for historic road rallies or road rallies. A rule like this would stop a lot of people cometing in soft tops like the Stansfields on Sunday in their 3a on the Viking.

 

In the safety rules, it does suggest for those with glass sunroofs they fit some adhesive type film which stops them shattering.

 

Les,

I hope this plethora of advice isn't confusing Dazzer. I have the DVD of the whole Blue Book, sent out by the MSA to licence holders and I've searched it for "sunroof". There are three mentions:

 

G 129 "Glass sunroofs are not permitted"

This is in the Race regs but is referred to below.

 

H 269 Same wording as G129

 

I 76 A sunroof "must remain operative". But this is for Sprint & HillClimb.

 

I would bre surprized if a scrutineer with his glasses on accepted a taped up glass sunroof, even if it was aluminium tape a la Colin Chapman!

(CC claimed that a piece of cardboard painted with aluminium paint was metal)

But the ways of rally are manifold!

 

John

[willywonka]

G 129 "Glass sunroofs are not permitted"

This is in the Race regs but is referred to below.

 

H 269 Same wording as G129

 

I 76 A sunroof "must remain operative". But this is for Sprint & HillClimb.

 

I

 

 

 

 

Section 'G' is for "Specific Regs for Car Racing"

 

Section 'H' is Specific Regs for Rallying"

 

'H269' is for Stage Rally prepared cars, not Road Rally prepared cars

 

Don't get confused as they are totally different forms of rules for the different disciplines.

 

 

As for the regulations for Historic Road Rallies I have attached the relevent sections from the Leukaemia Rally regulations below:-

 

 

Cars will be required to undergo a noise test and, if over 98dBa is registered at 2/3rds of maximum rpm on the noise meter, they will not be permitted to start, H 108

 

The event will consist of the following classes as below; it is stressed that only period modifications will be permitted (H 121) for the Historic Event and that Endurance Cars should comply with H 129.

 

Historic Category 1 Road Rally Cars

Must have been registered before 1.1.68, comply with H 117.

 

Historic Category 2 Road Rally Cars

Must have been registered between 1.1.68 to 31.12.74 and comply with H 118

 

Historic Category 3 Road Rally Cars

Must have been registered between 1.1.75 and 31.12.81, comply with their Group 1 or 3 homologation papers and comply with H 119: Historic Category 3 Road Rally Cars will compete for their own awards only, and they will not be included in the overall or class results.

 

H 120

Note. Cars in categories 1 and 2 registered after the appropriate date may be permitted, provided that documentary evidence is submitted to the MSA to show that the specific car (not model) was manufactured within the specified period. This will include any technical documentation supplied by the manufacturer, documents relative to the vehicle, information available concerning the chassis and engine number and other such information from reliable and/or authenticated sources as may be available. On receipt of satisfactory evidence the MSA will issue an Historic Vehicle Identity Form which must be presented at scutineering with the registration document. All cars in Category 3 are required to have a valid Historic Vehicle Identity Form to which the FIA Homologation forms must be attached.

 

 

 

Hope this clears up some of your questions.

 

It all depends on what form of motorsport you wish to partake in, to comply to the rules for that type of event.

[john.r.davies]

I'm backing out of this, as people with actual rally experience speak.

Especially as the MSA uses "sunroof" as well as "sun roof", so bollixing any rational search

 

BUT, quote from the Historics section, reg H303

"any sun roof must comply with G 129."

 

John