TR6 Transmission

[Trampere]

Happy New Year to all TR enthusiasts.

I took my TR6 out for a Christmas day airing yesterday as it was a dry and relatively nice day. Car performed a dream for about an hour at good speeds without any indication of problems until I arrived home and was positioning her rear for an assault up our drive to the garage. At this stage I noticed/heard a sort of complaining noise, a sort of whiney/wheeze/groan from underneath and she struggled to respond. I then noticed a "Clutch smell" so I stopped trying and checked that the overdrive was disengaged - it was OK.

I got her garaged and left her overnight.

Today she started fine and seemed OK at first but then she started the same behaviour from rest in first and reverse. Once going she performed beautifully with no sign of clutch slip through any other gear. overdrive operated fine.

Back in the garage there is definitely a whiff of clutch.

No noise when in neutral and no noise when clutch pedal is pressed to the floor.

As I am a relative newcomer to the TR6 I am wondering if this is a symptom of pending doom?

Any assistance will be appreciated.

TR6 is a 1970 CP

Kind regards

John

[foster461]

Happy New Year to all TR enthusiasts.

I took my TR6 out for a Christmas day airing yesterday as it was a dry and relatively nice day. Car performed a dream for about an hour at good speeds without any indication of problems until I arrived home and was positioning her rear for an assault up our drive to the garage. At this stage I noticed/heard a sort of complaining noise, a sort of whiney/wheeze/groan from underneath and she struggled to respond. I then noticed a "Clutch smell" so I stopped trying and checked that the overdrive was disengaged - it was OK.

I got her garaged and left her overnight.

Today she started fine and seemed OK at first but then she started the same behaviour from rest in first and reverse. Once going she performed beautifully with no sign of clutch slip through any other gear. overdrive operated fine.

Back in the garage there is definitely a whiff of clutch.

No noise when in neutral and no noise when clutch pedal is pressed to the floor.

As I am a relative newcomer to the TR6 I am wondering if this is a symptom of pending doom?

Any assistance will be appreciated.

TR6 is a 1970 CP

Kind regards

John

 

John, I'm not coming up with any scenarios that dont lead to a worn out, failed or contaminated clutch plate or other significant issue with the pressure plate and/or flywheel so I'm guessing that the tranny will have to come out soon so you can see what is going on and fix it. Other than time consuming it is a very straightforward and inexpensive fix for you to do at home, generally doable over a weekend with a freind or two and some beer.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Hi John

I would go along with Stan but before removing the tranny I would check the crankshaft endfloat as it seemed to come along all of a sudden.

Regards

Neil

[TR NIALL]

Hi John would do as suggested re endfloat,have you had the car long and what part of Wicklow are you in,i am in Tallaght maybe not to far away and might be able to help you out, if stuck send me a p/m with a phone number and see what we can do to help.

[Trampere]

Hi John would do as suggested re endfloat,have you had the car long and what part of Wicklow are you in,i am in Tallaght maybe not to far away and might be able to help you out, if stuck send me a p/m with a phone number and see what we can do to help.

 

 

Thanks everybody for the advice, I will look up the manual re the crankshaft end-float

Niall, I live in Delgany, Co Wicklow near Greystones.

The engine was rebuilt/overhauled in 1990 at 50000 miles and there is approx 13000 miles done since

Happy new year

John

[Trampere]

Good afternoon again forum

Sat 27th Dec

I have just checked the crankshaft end -float and it reads 0.26mm

I see that the manual states that the clearance allowable is 0.1524 - 0.2032mm so it is indeed exceeded

Could this be the problem?

I seem to recall reading trhe engine rebuild notes that there was something about the end-float and the housing.

I will read the notes again tonight and hopefully it is not an "old sore" reappearing

Great to get advice

Thanks

John

[foster461]

Good afternoon again forum

Sat 27th Dec

I have just checked the crankshaft end -float and it reads 0.26mm

I see that the manual states that the clearance allowable is 0.1524 - 0.2032mm so it is indeed exceeded

Could this be the problem?

I seem to recall reading trhe engine rebuild notes that there was something about the end-float and the housing.

I will read the notes again tonight and hopefully it is not an "old sore" reappearing

Great to get advice

Thanks

John

 

John, excessive end float not is not good and in extreme cases can lead to the thrust washers falling out and serious damage to the crank and block. While worn or missing thrust washers will allow the crank to move further forward and create a corresponding issue with the clutch, it is more likely to appear as a clutch disengagement problem rather than slipping so I'm personally not convinced that there is not also an issue with the clutch system.

 

I've had a new clutch fail in just 400 miles and we have seen some junk parts displayed here in the past.

 

Stan

[Trampere]

Stan

there was a new "Laycock" clutch pressure plate and disk + release bearing fitted in 2005, less than 3000 miles ago. this was fitted by the same lads (Yorkshire TR Centre) that did the engine rebuild in 1989/1990 so I think it is OK.

I have read the rebuild notes and I am fearful that a big job is imminent!!!

Sometime in the distant past a repair was effected after the thrust washers apparently "spun" with the crank. the crank was ground and oversize washer then pinned to the housing and some other nefarious activities that saw the engine up to 1989.

When this was discovered during the rebuild a new crank was fitted and all parts renewed to restore originality, however the worn housing could not be restored so a standard washer was pinned to the housing to stop the risk of it spinning at a future time.

Whilst I understand (or think I understand the text as written in the report) the motivation and it did the job, I am now thinking about how to renew the thrust washer in either standard or oversize to get the correct float, without removing the crank?

I think I will try and contact the Yorkshire TR Centre and see if they will remember the car and the engine job and explain in detail what was done and if it is possible to now renew the thrust washers in the normal way or ?

Prayers please

John

[Guest ntc]

Stan

there was a new "Laycock" clutch pressure plate and disk + release bearing fitted in 2005, less than 3000 miles ago. this was fitted by the same lads (Yorkshire TR Centre) that did the engine rebuild in 1989/1990 so I think it is OK.

I have read the rebuild notes and I am fearful that a big job is imminent!!!

Sometime in the distant past a repair was effected after the thrust washers apparently "spun" with the crank. the crank was ground and oversize washer then pinned to the housing and some other nefarious activities that saw the engine up to 1989.

When this was discovered during the rebuild a new crank was fitted and all parts renewed to restore originality, however the worn housing could not be restored so a standard washer was pinned to the housing to stop the risk of it spinning at a future time.

Whilst I understand (or think I understand the text as written in the report) the motivation and it did the job, I am now thinking about how to renew the thrust washer in either standard or oversize to get the correct float, without removing the crank?

I think I will try and contact the Yorkshire TR Centre and see if they will remember the car and the engine job and explain in detail what was done and if it is possible to now renew the thrust washers in the normal way or ?

Prayers please

John

 

Hi John

 

Slow down a bit. Excessive end-float is not good news however the amount you are showing is not unheard of, my other train of thought you may have sheared the taper pin on the shaft or as normal the shaft itself is broke it carries the release bearing can you email me your paperwork

 

Regards

 

Neil

Edited December 27, 2008 by ntc

[foster461]

Hi John

 

Slow down a bit. Excessive end-float is not good news however the amount you are showing is not unheard of, my other train of thought you may have sheared the taper pin on the shaft carrying the release bearing can you email me your paperwork

 

Regards

 

Neil

 

I agree, it is too early to panic just yet. Neil, even a sheared fork pin would lead to clutch disengagement issues not clutch slippage. I'm still not seeing anything that would be responsible for:

 

At this stage I noticed/heard a sort of complaining noise, a sort of whiney/wheeze/groan from underneath and she struggled to respond. I then noticed a "Clutch smell"

 

Its no big deal to drop the oil pan and check the bottom end though.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

I agree, it is too early to panic just yet. Neil, even a sheared fork pin would lead to clutch disengagement issues not clutch slippage. I'm still not seeing anything that would be responsible for:

 

At this stage I noticed/heard a sort of complaining noise, a sort of whiney/wheeze/groan from underneath and she struggled to respond. I then noticed a "Clutch smell"

 

Its no big deal to drop the oil pan and check the bottom end though.

 

Stan

 

Hi Stan

Please see edited post I forgot the shaft .I have seen this before

Regards

Neil

[Trampere]

Stan & Neil

I have searched my manuals and I cannot see anywhere the clutch engage/disengage mechanism, the fork and release bearing etc so i dont know what or where the taper pin is.

However when pressing the clutch pedal it feels normal, the pressure feedback is OK and no noises or jerks.

Now, is there any chance that the overdrive could engage with the car stopped even though it is switched out?

If so what would it sound like if driven in 1st or reverse from standstill - any experience

John

[Guest ntc]

Stan & Neil

I have searched my manuals and I cannot see anywhere the clutch engage/disengage mechanism, the fork and release bearing etc so i dont know what or where the taper pin is.

However when pressing the clutch pedal it feels normal, the pressure feedback is OK and no noises or jerks.

Now, is there any chance that the overdrive could engage with the car stopped even though it is switched out?

If so what would it sound like if driven in 1st or reverse from standstill - any experience

John

 

Hi John

Hopefully a pic attached to show you the setup this one is modified to stop some of the probs like yours,the shaft can and does break and the clutch will still work however with less movement this with excessive end-float can lead to prob's with 1st and reverse gear selection.Unless one of the inhibitors on gearbox has failed or faulty wiring you should not be able to use either gear in overdrive, go to the car select 1st gear with the engine not running and switch the ignition on and flick the overdrive switch on and off can you hear a click.select second gear and try the same

Regards

Neil

Edited December 28, 2008 by ntc

[foster461]

Stan & Neil

I have searched my manuals and I cannot see anywhere the clutch engage/disengage mechanism, the fork and release bearing etc so i dont know what or where the taper pin is.

However when pressing the clutch pedal it feels normal, the pressure feedback is OK and no noises or jerks.

Now, is there any chance that the overdrive could engage with the car stopped even though it is switched out?

If so what would it sound like if driven in 1st or reverse from standstill - any experience

John

 

If you look at Neil's picture you can see the shaft running through the bushes in the bell housing and also through the release bearing fork. The fork is attached to the shaft with a tapered pin that goes into a tapered hold in the shaft. You can see the shiny end of that pin under the fork. It looks like Neil has drilled it and wired it for additional insurance. This pin is a notorious failure point in the TR6 clutch. If your clutch operation feels normal at the pedal and the clutch disengages well before the pedal reaches the floor it is unlikely that this pin or the shaft has failed.

 

You should have an A type OD wired for 2, 3 and 4 so as Neil says you should be able to turn on the ignition, select a gear and flip the OD switch. In 2, 3 and 4 you should hear the OD solenoid click. There should be no click in 1st and reverse.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

If you look at Neil's picture you can see the shaft running through the bushes in the bell housing and also through the release bearing fork. The fork is attached to the shaft with a tapered pin that goes into a tapered hold in the shaft. You can see the shiny end of that pin under the fork. It looks like Neil has drilled it and wired it for additional insurance. This pin is a notorious failure point in the TR6 clutch. If your clutch operation feels normal at the pedal and the clutch disengages well before the pedal reaches the floor it is unlikely that this pin or the shaft has failed.

 

You should have an A type OD wired for 2, 3 and 4 so as Neil says you should be able to turn on the ignition, select a gear and flip the OD switch. In 2, 3 and 4 you should hear the OD solenoid click. There should be no click in 1st and reverse.

 

Stan

 

Hi Stan

I don't know about you but I am begining to think the overdrive could be stuck in engaged there is a way around it but we will see

Regards

Neil

[foster461]

Hi Stan

I don't know about you but I am begining to think the overdrive could be stuck in engaged there is a way around it but we will see

Regards

Neil

 

Could well be. perhaps the clutch smell was coming from the OD clutch. Time to get out the BFH perhaps..

[tr6driver]

Happy New Year to all TR enthusiasts.

I took my TR6 out for a Christmas day airing yesterday as it was a dry and relatively nice day. Car performed a dream for about an hour at good speeds without any indication of problems until I arrived home and was positioning her rear for an assault up our drive to the garage. At this stage I noticed/heard a sort of complaining noise, a sort of whiney/wheeze/groan from underneath and she struggled to respond. I then noticed a "Clutch smell" so I stopped trying and checked that the overdrive was disengaged - it was OK.

I got her garaged and left her overnight.

Today she started fine and seemed OK at first but then she started the same behaviour from rest in first and reverse. Once going she performed beautifully with no sign of clutch slip through any other gear. overdrive operated fine.

Back in the garage there is definitely a whiff of clutch.

No noise when in neutral and no noise when clutch pedal is pressed to the floor.

As I am a relative newcomer to the TR6 I am wondering if this is a symptom of pending doom?

Any assistance will be appreciated.

TR6 is a 1970 CP

Kind regards

John

 

Hi John.

 

I have had exactly the same experience as you have on my TR6.

A wheening noise when engaging the clutch,and clutch smell.

The problem was a broken part where the clutch release bearing meet the clutch housing.

One of the fingers was broken and was laying inside the clutch.It was a Borg and Beck type.

 

Oystein

[foster461]

Hi Stan

I don't know about you but I am begining to think the overdrive could be stuck in engaged there is a way around it but we will see

Regards

Neil

 

John, if you put the tranny into neutral are you able to push the car backwards and forwards ?. That will tell you if the OD is stuck on as with it off the car should be free to move.

 

Stan

[Trampere]

Hello again Lads, I am not able to give the car much attention right now as kids and their kids are staying so am rather busy with other things. However I did the checks for the OD suggested by Stan and the OD is definitely OK, solenoid clicks in all the right places and car can be moved easily by pushing forwards and backwards in neutral.

I will examine the photo showing the release arrangement and think!

Kind regards and many thanks for all the help and suggestions so far

John

[Trampere]

Oystein

Thanks for the info, was much damage caused by the broken bits and how did you repair?

I'd say it must be pretty cold where you are right now

happy New Year

John

[Trampere]

Good day forum users

I would like to thank all those who responded to my calls for help, it is a great facility and being able to tap into others experiences and knowledge is very helpful.

I have now resolved to take down the transmission and examine, I will report on my findings. However it will be March before I am able to attempt this work.

Have a good 2009

John

[foster461]

Good day forum users

I would like to thank all those who responded to my calls for help, it is a great facility and being able to tap into others experiences and knowledge is very helpful.

I have now resolved to take down the transmission and examine, I will report on my findings. However it will be March before I am able to attempt this work.

Have a good 2009

John

 

John, you will actually be taking it up and not down as it has to be lifted out by hand though the tub but when you get ready to tackle it you will find a lot of info here already and plenty of people that have been there before.

 

Stan

[tr6driver]

Oystein

Thanks for the info, was much damage caused by the broken bits and how did you repair?

I'd say it must be pretty cold where you are right now

happy New Year

John

 

Happy new year John

 

Yes , its very cold here for the moment,minus 11 this morning at sea level.

I had to pull out the gearbox.I changed the cluch release bearing,new upgraded

fork pin , clutch plate and clutch pressure plate.

I would go for the sachs type clutch.Less pedal pressure than a B&B type.

Also a thing to think about is to change out the front oil seal on the gearbox input shaft.

It dont cost many pounds,and is very simple to change when you have the gearbox out of the

car.

When fitting the clutch you save a lot of swearing if you have a clutch alignment tool.

Good luck.

 

Oystein

[spiro]

Sounds to me you may have the centre clutch plate starting to brake up, if its the after-market 3 rivet type fitted and not the original type. If it has broken it could be jammed but slips under heavy throttle. Sounds similar to what happened to mine before it went completely, check back on Clutch failure and clutch problem on the forum.

Not saying that its definitely that but possible

Spiro

[jobster]

Sounds to me you may have the centre clutch plate starting to brake up, if its the after-market 3 rivet type fitted and not the original type. If it has broken it could be jammed but slips under heavy throttle. Sounds similar to what happened to mine before it went completely, check back on Clutch failure and clutch problem on the forum.

Not saying that its definitely that but possible

Spiro

Exactly what happened to mine which was installed by the previous owner. Have the Gunst bearing and LuK-set installed now, and works like a charm. Getting the gearbox in was a hell of a job. Even with a clutch alignment tool (you have to be sure it is centered really well, don't ask me how I know) it's a pain in the back.

Edited January 5, 2009 by jobster