D1092 Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Well, since I managed to offend the Peerless community (and defenders of the punctuation-challenged) with my last post, I thought I'd post a photo from my Doretti restoration so that those who found my comments objectionable could gloat over my struggles! Brief history: my car spent all of its life in Florida until coming into my ownership in late 2007. I believe I'm the fifth owner. Apart from paint and upholstery, it appears to be mostly original. I started the stripdown in earnest about two months ago, after moving the car to a new workshop with more elbow room than the old storage unit. The interior-- what was left of it-- is stripped out now, and I have removed all of the exterior panels and the rear 'tub'. I plan to strip it down to the chassis, and once that's blasted and painted I'll build up the mechanical components on that. Once that's coming along, the blasted and painted front and rear inner panels will go back on, then finally the exterior panels and cockpit finishing. Simple (fingers crossed). Having spent five decades in sunny climes, the car does not have much in the way of rust, apart from surface sprinklings-- sea air, don't you know. The exception to this general statement was found in the footwells, where some brown lace was found. This appears to be mainly the result of a burst battery at some point many years ago. Bummer! So, new floor panels will be in order. My plan is to fabricate the panels from fresh sheet, joggle the edges to match the originals, and then move the reinforcing channel strips from the old panels to the new ones. Ultimately I hope the replacements will be good enough to fool even the most eagle-eyed Doretti expert. This looks like a fun little task-- and it will be good to have something being built *up* while I am spending my time tearing the car *down*. Attached is a photo of what remains of the old floor panels. The new ones won't offer Flintstone-style braking! Regards, Vittorio Texas, USA PS- Is anyone planning to be at Techno Classica Essen next month? Please PM me if so. Would love to meet and talk Doretti. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Hi Vittorio, as Doretti floors go, those look pretty good - heaven knows what Swallow used for floors, but as steel goes it didn't rate ! Par for the course was replacement by plywood after about 10 years . . . . Looking forward to seeing more of your efforts, keep up the good work ! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Wilcox Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Hi Vittorio Call that rust! My car had floors which even Fred Flintstone would have been proud of - allowing you to keep your feet in contact with the road at all times. Seriously though, it's good to see you digging in. You appear to have all the reference points in place to allow you to put it back as it originally was. As long as you don't duplicate Doretti standards of rust protection you can be assured that your new floors will have a long and happy life. Good luck with the rebuild. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trhouse Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 I actually made a tool to form the jack hole in the pans. I trued the edge of a Churchill Hub puller and made a tapped cup to fit the thread on the hub puller and simply pulled the offset in! I wheeled the offsets in around the edges. tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D1092 Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I actually made a tool to form the jack hole in the pans. I trued the edge of a Churchill Hub puller and made a tapped cup to fit the thread on the hub puller and simply pulled the offset in! I wheeled the offsets in around the edges. tom That's a great idea, Tom. I have just started thinking about the kit I will need to assemble in order to remake the floor panels. It's going to be enough work that I might as well make a spare set or two of floor panels and offer them around! I was in Essen, Germany, last week for Techno Classica, billed as the world's biggest classic car get-together. It was something like a million square feet of vintage cars, from the pedestrian to the oddball to the truly astounding. Lots of bread-and-butter classics were mixed in-- it was fun to see what attention was attracted by such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe. And it was interesting to see some very grand prewar machinery in the metal, such as imposing examples of the Horch marque. Most interesting to me, though, were the low-production cars that appealed to the sophisticated dollar (or pound, or deutschmark, or CHF) back in their day, and which still don't get the same attention as well-known brands. Several examples of Swiss coachbuilder Graber's art were on display, including a very elegant Talbot-Lago and, my personal favorite, an absolutely perfect Alvis coupe. (You can see the latter in a nice spread in this month's Thoroughbred & Classic.) There were several OSCAs, and the only Cisitalia I have seen outside of the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. VW sponsored an extensive display that included a lovely Dannenhauer & Stauss roadster, which proves there is beauty to be found even in the humble Beetle. Undoubtedly the star of the show for me was Doretti #1037. It has to be one of the most original Dorettis, with only 40,000 miles on the clock and only minimal recommissioning work since its discovery in the back of a garage a few years ago. It's for sale by a Dutch dealer, and I'm going to try to see if we can get it back to the US (despite the dealer's lackadaisical approach to selling). But the real value for me was to be able to climb all over it to photograph all the original elements that my own car is missing-- original pattern carpet, upholstery, etc. It was an invaluable opportunity to take notes for my own restoration. Speaking of which, I've got #1092 down to the frame and mechanical bits now. Note for future restorers: though I did manage to get the front tub off by myself, it really is a two-person job! Also, Swallow used small, rather sloppy spacers made from unfinished aluminum to align the tubs where they contacted the frame, and it's worth keeping track of these as you disassemble. I won't reuse them, though, at least not without sanding them down and painting them-- there was a lot of corrosion. Now I need to remove the engine/trans, front and rear suspension, and steering, and it's off to the blaster's to have the frame taken down to the metal and refinished. I was surprised at how quickly I could get the car stripped-- they really are quite simple-- and I'm looking forward to starting the rebuild. Of course, this is where things start to get expensive... Regards, Vittorio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 "such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe" . . . sorry Vittorio, but even for an American unfamiliar with the European market of the 1950s, that just has to be one of the all-time gormless observations. The Borgward Isabella range was one of the most advanced productions of the 1950s, some would argue the best mass-production car of its era. The Isabella Coupe was a Grand Tourer unequalled in its day, and still a practical vehicle half a century on. In contrast, Graber was a one-horse wonder, his designs hardly moved on over 30 years. Refreshing though they may have been in the late 1930s, by the 1960s they were long outdated. Restrained and discreet styling perhaps, but most and possibly all of them were rustbuckets - speaking as someone who has owned a couple. Quality of construction was not Graber's strongest suit. As for Doretti #1037 . . . . I had a bunch of snapshots of that car in the mid-1970s. I can't recall if it was still in the hands of its original owner or whether it had just changed hands at the time. It had been off the road for only a handful of years, and was supposedly original - albeit looking somewhat jaded. A rather odd shade of green, which I haven't seen elsewhere, blessed with bizarre replacement bumpers, and looking decidedly non original to my eyes. There was a Doretti offered for sale at auction (at one heck of a price) in the Netherlands last year, which bore a considerable resemblance in colour - if it was the same car, I'd guess it must have had some fairly extensive restoration. Your comments on spacers are interesting - I saw the body removed from the chassis of my old Doretti in the hands of its next owner, and those of a couple of other Dorettis. Each of them had nicely machined spacers of varying dimension. I'd guess that the chassis construction was more consistent than that of the body ? Yours being an earlier car, the "unfinished aluminum" may be original - or perhaps evidence of an earlier rebuild ? Good to hear that you're progressing with the rebuild, keep up the good work !! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trhouse Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 That's a great idea, Tom. I have just started thinking about the kit I will need to assemble in order to remake the floor panels. It's going to be enough work that I might as well make a spare set or two of floor panels and offer them around! I was in Essen, Germany, last week for Techno Classica, billed as the world's biggest classic car get-together. It was something like a million square feet of vintage cars, from the pedestrian to the oddball to the truly astounding. Lots of bread-and-butter classics were mixed in-- it was fun to see what attention was attracted by such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe. And it was interesting to see some very grand prewar machinery in the metal, such as imposing examples of the Horch marque. Most interesting to me, though, were the low-production cars that appealed to the sophisticated dollar (or pound, or deutschmark, or CHF) back in their day, and which still don't get the same attention as well-known brands. Several examples of Swiss coachbuilder Graber's art were on display, including a very elegant Talbot-Lago and, my personal favorite, an absolutely perfect Alvis coupe. (You can see the latter in a nice spread in this month's Thoroughbred & Classic.) There were several OSCAs, and the only Cisitalia I have seen outside of the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. VW sponsored an extensive display that included a lovely Dannenhauer & Stauss roadster, which proves there is beauty to be found even in the humble Beetle. Undoubtedly the star of the show for me was Doretti #1037. It has to be one of the most original Dorettis, with only 40,000 miles on the clock and only minimal recommissioning work since its discovery in the back of a garage a few years ago. It's for sale by a Dutch dealer, and I'm going to try to see if we can get it back to the US (despite the dealer's lackadaisical approach to selling). But the real value for me was to be able to climb all over it to photograph all the original elements that my own car is missing-- original pattern carpet, upholstery, etc. It was an invaluable opportunity to take notes for my own restoration. Speaking of which, I've got #1092 down to the frame and mechanical bits now. Note for future restorers: though I did manage to get the front tub off by myself, it really is a two-person job! Also, Swallow used small, rather sloppy spacers made from unfinished aluminum to align the tubs where they contacted the frame, and it's worth keeping track of these as you disassemble. I won't reuse them, though, at least not without sanding them down and painting them-- there was a lot of corrosion. Now I need to remove the engine/trans, front and rear suspension, and steering, and it's off to the blaster's to have the frame taken down to the metal and refinished. I was surprised at how quickly I could get the car stripped-- they really are quite simple-- and I'm looking forward to starting the rebuild. Of course, this is where things start to get expensive... Regards, Vittorio I've seen four floor pan variations in the cars the holes are not always consistent. Stock piling stock I did some years back down to a couple of sets left. The pattern seems to standardize after the first 90 cars or so. Things get a little different at the very end trying to get a bit more leg room and mods heading for the MKII. Panelcraft quality and consistency was excellent on the inner panels as well the aluminum, Only a few minor mods through out the production on the steel. Given the hand built bodies, wings, boots and bonnets sometimes don't interchange from one car to another without some fitting and redrilling of holes. The body spacers are simple notched out rectangles stacked to fine tune the door alignment. tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D1092 Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 "such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe" . . . sorry Vittorio, but even for an American unfamiliar with the European market of the 1950s, that just has to be one of the all-time gormless observations. The Borgward Isabella range was one of the most advanced productions of the 1950s, some would argue the best mass-production car of its era. The Isabella Coupe was a Grand Tourer unequalled in its day, and still a practical vehicle half a century on. Alec, there really is no need to be quite so insulting. Let's keep the discourse on a polite level. I will point out that nothing you said about the Isabella is contradicted by what I wrote. I find the car's outward aspect "lovably goofy." I made no observations about its engineering quality or practicality. And calling me (I assume you meant me) "an American unfamiliar with the European market of the 1950s", is flatly comical. We have never met! In contrast, Graber was a one-horse wonder, his designs hardly moved on over 30 years. Refreshing though they may have been in the late 1930s, by the 1960s they were long outdated. Restrained and discreet styling perhaps, but most and possibly all of them were rustbuckets - speaking as someone who has owned a couple. Quality of construction was not Graber's strongest suit. I'm not sure what you're saying here. The styling was outdated by the 1960s? Well, that's certainly arguable, though not particularly relevant as the cars I mentioned were earlier examples. And if we're judging coachbuilders by their cars' resistance to rust, I'm not sure we'll find any that would meet your standard. One could say the same about the Doretti, to judge from the stories on this board. But this is not the Hermann Graber discussion group, so... As for Doretti #1037 . . . . I had a bunch of snapshots of that car in the mid-1970s. I can't recall if it was still in the hands of its original owner or whether it had just changed hands at the time. It had been off the road for only a handful of years, and was supposedly original - albeit looking somewhat jaded. A rather odd shade of green, which I haven't seen elsewhere, blessed with bizarre replacement bumpers, and looking decidedly non original to my eyes. There was a Doretti offered for sale at auction (at one heck of a price) in the Netherlands last year, which bore a considerable resemblance in colour - if it was the same car, I'd guess it must have had some fairly extensive restoration. The replacement bumpers have themselves been replaced, with one-off repro items (from where? Tom?) that are reasonably close to the originals. #1037 has not been significantly restored-- at least not recently-- though it has apparently been repainted in spots, and a certain amount of mechanical recommissioning was carried out. Does anyone know the chassis # in the auction Alec refers to? I read about that as well, but have nowhere seen any identifying information. Your comments on spacers are interesting - I saw the body removed from the chassis of my old Doretti in the hands of its next owner, and those of a couple of other Dorettis. Each of them had nicely machined spacers of varying dimension. I'd guess that the chassis construction was more consistent than that of the body ? Yours being an earlier car, the "unfinished aluminum" may be original - or perhaps evidence of an earlier rebuild ? Given the condition of other elements of the car, I'd be very surprised if there had been an earlier body-off restoration of #1092-- though nothing's impossible. But judging from Tom's comments there were some running changes in certain components of the body, so perhaps later cars had more finely-finished spacers. Alternatively, maybe the spacers in #1092 were in fact carefully machined, but the effects of decades of corrosion make them look like crude lumps. Though one wonders, if Swallow went through the trouble of carefully sizing and machining the spacers, why not paint or otherwise coat them while they were at it? I'll post some photos for information and commentary. Thanks for your comments, Alec, it's always good to hear from the experts. Though I'd be ever so grateful if you'd modify your tone just a bit. Regards, Vittorio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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