Motorsport Mickey
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Posts posted by Motorsport Mickey
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1 hour ago, Michel Higuet said:
He never says it fired a few times...
As you posted yourself he said...to precise here your " I tried to start it and no difference, but it did try a little. " doesn't that mean it nearly started ? even if just 1 cylinder part combustion ?
Mick Richards
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9 minutes ago, Steven Whitaker said:
Ok, thanks. So far as I can see, the inlet mani is sat down, but will look further. Cheers.
STOP !
You need to use the advice given to you rather than interpret it in your mind.
Banging 5cc of petrol into the chamber bypasses EVERY other problem you have...or may have, it's easy, no petrol or no spark equals no go. Even if your timing is adrift I'd expect a direct feed of petrol into the chamber to remain there long enough with the engine turning over to give at least a 1 cylinder firing solution that works. If it does then the manifold seating is suspect.
Mick Richards
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It sounds like a mammoth air leak on the inlet manifold, normally caused by the manifold not being fitted correctly over the dowels on the cylinder head, hence no vacuum being able to pull fuel up from the jets on the carbs. Take out all the plugs and put 5cc (teaspoon)of petrol through the spark plug holes directly into the chambers, plugs back in and turn it over looking for life. Even if it doesn't kick somehow I'd reseat that inlet maniflod to remove it from the list of "could be's".
Mick Richards
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The lip seal fits inside the original "scroll" seal (although it isn't a seal, it's a scroll scavenging system that scrapes the oil off the crank without touching it.). See picture
After you have positioned the new scroll holder Top (Blue coloured) using the dummu crankshaft, onto the block, you bolt it into position on the block rear face, and the other half onto the dummy crankshaft sitting in position in the block, on the rear block main bearing cap.
The rear main bearing cap needs to be removed (leave the bottom blue scroll half bolted onto it, using a puller (make your own, a length of angle iron with about 25mm faces that can bolt onto the sump threaded securing holes after you've welded a nut (sump bolt threaded size) in position across the mains cap). After bolting the cap to the angle iron wind 2 bolts (one either end) through the welded nuts down onto the block sump surface and lift the bearing cap out vertically carefully so as not to damage the bolted on blue scroll seal holder.
Then remove the dummy crankshaft and fit the proper crankshaft, carefully placing it into the bearings along the crank and the rear bearing and the blue scroll holder. Before you position the crankshaft in the block, place the new lip seal around the crank (shown as brown in the picture) on the crank, the small lip just sits behind the scroll on the machined surface. The split on the seal needs positioning so as to be on the top of the crank nearest the block deck. Then refit the rear main bearing cap with it's blue bolted on seal holder into the block, careful not to scuff or lever against the seal holder as you position the rear cap. I always smear a little silicone over the blue seal split surfaces and the brown seals split surface to help any sealing.
Mick Richards
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Flat piece of 4mm plate cut to the outsize edge dimensions of the pad an easy weld on, with pin locating hole in the centre repairs it nicely.
Mick Richards
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Pete, you have a message.
Mick Richards
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As John as done here, I'm used to taking engine and gearbox out like this, my overhead clearance is limited (standard 1930s build garage ), so when you get to this stage I'm on maximum lift. The next step is climb into the engine compartment and inch the car backwards as you lift the gearbox (not to heavy because it's suspended) and angle the sump and then gearbox up over the front panel, a juggle but doable with a helper.
Mick Richards
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1 hour ago, Mk2 Chopper said:
I've tried searching for this Mick, using Google not the search on here, and all I get is a list of questions asking if a hub is about to fail, and people complaining about CDD versions having lots of play. I'm just not seeing the evidence, but rather reported hearsay about it. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I can't easily seem to find that evidence?
And certainly it's no good to be putting information out there about the imminent danger of using original Triumph hubs, when it's possible that an alternative aftermarket solution may be no better (or possibly worse). We've yet to be assured of that particular brand.
I agree that the versions that are used in competition or cars with uprated power engines are worth a look.
Gareth
Gareth,
You may have more luck searching in the Forum for Hubs or Driveshafts, it's longhand but if you manually search the threads you'll come up with confirming threads that I've been quoting here.
As I said before ..."Please don't take my comments above as an advertisement or endorsement for CDD or any other manufacturer or process of keeping the wheels upon any Triumph. Sometimes in life and after researching with due diligence you make a choice which you have to stand by, which I have done with mine."
However disappointing that a number of the replacement hubs (themselves Triumph copies) have had problems, and also the more modern designs replacing them have not been trouble free, I await with interest the results of the supplying dealer and manufacturer to the customer going forward.
Mick Richards
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21 minutes ago, iani said:
I collected my broken shaft from Wards this afternoon, they were able to pull the hub off ok, nothing had seized & the bearing still contains the original blue grease and turns freely. The shaft has sheared towards the inboard end of the woodruff key slot, the shaft is still bright and shows no sign of blueing which you would expect if it had been subject to high temperatures. I will take some pics of it this weekend and send to CDD for comment.
Thanks Iani, we await with interest.
Mick Richards
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Sorry you think it’s scaremongering Gareth, the results of these original hubs breaking are there to be seen and have been reported on the forum before. I was aware by bringing it to owners attention that it may prove “ contentious” but I’m satisfied I did it for the correct reason and as a service to owners.
You are correct to say that not all of the replacement hub makers have suffered breakages. There are at least 2 makes who specialise in large output engines and/or Competition cars where stresses are high, and these have not had failures recorded on the forum by their owners. Perhaps this should be born in mind when replacing old hubs.As far as I’m aware the previous new hubs with failures, HAVEN’T suffered with broken stub axles or broken hubs. As we’ve reported we are awaiting different reports from owners on a GT6 and on Stag, to see what caused their particular failures. I hope that information will help.
Mick Richards
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14 hours ago, DRD said:
Often it's best to adopt the old adage, 'if it ain't broke don't try and fix it.'
That's exactly the problem, with the stub axles cracking and the hubs cracking from inside owners can't guess whether it's broken or not, in my opinion doing nothing is a hazardous option.
Because of the position of the stub axle and the hub construction it's quite possible they are cracked or cracking in areas where a crack tester can't get to. As long as new hubs are built to satisfactory quality whether of the original design or a new design replacing 50 year old hubs where you don't know how they've been treated or what's been done to them if bearings have been changed before, changing old for new hubs should be a sensible precaution.
As has been reported by TR owners who worked for firms that ran the big Triumphs they were experiencing stub and hub failures within the first 3 years of life or 100,000 miles. So no surprise now 50 years and a possible myriad of miles later that every year more original equipment is crying...enough. Let's hope the reports upon early failures of new hubs can be attributed to a particular circumstance, and remedial action taken to satisfy owners.
Mick Richards
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Iani,
We are all awaiting what information comes back to you as to the reason for your hub failure.
As we've seen before from some of the other hubs (Moss) which have suffered from embarrassingly short "in use" failures (months even), making a preventative purchase decision is sometimes not rewarded with a trouble-free life. So much now rests upon a conciliatory reception from the suppliers and an encouraging explanation as to what happened along with a prompt resolution of your problem.
Mick Richards
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Hi Marco,
That time of year again, Happy Birthday and best wishes, hope you and your darling wife enjoy a great day together,
Mick Richards
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5 hours ago, Keith66 said:
Yep tried to go to the CCD website yesterday but Firefox went nuts and categorised it as a dodgy website and said not to visit, so I didn’t.
Its really about trying to understand the risk factors. If the issue is the original hubs have been abused or had poor maintenance techniques used (ie splitting incorrectly) and a new hub helps simply by new rather than 50 years old or is it mainly the design which is intolerant of any subsequent maintenance or is simply too old to be safe and a new hub of a different design is the only way to go.
After all £800 would cover getting the Rover 25 brakes done and through another MOT and that get used daily
Cheers Keith
I understand Keith, and that;s your choice, it's your car. I had to make a different decision that sat more comfortably with me.
Mick Richards
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16 hours ago, Keith66 said:
Hi all,
Good info, but it does highlight a quandary.
My car was a one owner original condition (rusty wreck) barn find prior to me getting it, with 69k on the clock which I’ve got no reason to disbelieve that as apart from the mega rot, trim and mouse issues mechanically the engine and gearbox needed minimal work, though both were stripped just in case and everything else has been stripped down and rebuilt and renewed as needed.
But the hubs seemed fine as do the splines (no clonks but my experience is minimal) but has it had new rear bearings and the hubs been split before I got it? who knows.
But of course the hubs are now over 50 years old so age??
Now I know it’s a case of its my car therefore its my decision, which is 100% correct but spending the thick end of £2k on new CV driveshafts the basis of what might happen in a small number of cases with little definitive evidence on the cause either way is kind of difficult to justify.
Clearly if bearings were on their way out I probably wouldn’t split the hub or buy reconditions ones, which I’m sure means new bearings and a repaint at best.
So the question of what to do and that leads to a couple of questions.
Are the new hubs that are available the same design as the original and thus would suffer from the same issues eventually. Though with the comments about triumph 2000’s failing at 4 or 5 years and 70k won’t really affect me (or most of us ) as 70k with represents about 20 years and I won’t be driving by then.
Are the uprated replacement hubs on that same original design or different and if they are of the original design what makes them uprated?
Similar with the whole CV driveshafts, is the hub element the same or different in its design?
If the new hubs are different what in the design makes them fail safe?
After all the differences could be fairly crucial and with the cost of for “new” hubs ranging from £330 to £895 the prices seem very different indeed.
Cheers Keith
Hi Keith,
Well, it's a rash man who makes a claim that any design makes anything failsafe ! However when I decided to replace my Stags original equipment hubs and with CV driveshafts, I bought from CDD after inspecting their products at various trade shows and speaking with Alasdair about how they were made. If you go on the CDD website this is how the hubs are described there.
UPRATED REAR UJ HUB
£440 (Each)
for Triumph Independent Rear Suspension (IRS) price Each
Fitted to TR4 IRS, TR5, TR6, STAG, INNSBRUCK & TVR ‘M’ SeriesThe problems with these units are widely known and acknowledged.
They were fine when they were new, but now they are regarded as a ‘pain’!
The need for specialist tools or big hydraulic presses to dissemble.
That they are very hard to build and maintain the bearing end float.
The flange becomes thinner as they have to be skimmed due to distortion.
The Yoke UJ diameters become bigger the more they are dissembled and reassembled.
In addition the flanges are known to crack and fail.
And the holding thread to the shaft shears.
THE REDESIGNED, MADE FROM NEW COMPONENTS, TRIUMPH REAR HUB UNITS SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS AND PROVIDE IMPORTANT UPGRADES.
Splined shaft and flange construction does not need ‘big’ pullers to separate.
Bearings are solidly spaced using shim washers so do not go out of adjustment.
Wear compensation is easily accomplished with DIY tools.
Because of this the flanges are not distorted so do not need skimming.
And driveshaft joints do not need to be disassembled so often.
Thread to shaft diameter is increased by 85%.
Flange design has increased diameters and radii to stop cracking and failure.
Bearing sizes are increased and bearing design has been validated by Timken UK.
Only Top quality materials, bearings and seals are used.
No Cheap Far East bits!
Installation Instructions
From this description of the items it answered the pertinent points that I had identified were most important to me
Splined shaft and flange construction does not need ‘big’ pullers to separate.
Bearings are solidly spaced using shim washers so do not go out of adjustment.
Wear compensation is easily accomplished with DIY tools.
Because of this the flanges are not distorted so do not need skimming.
I decided ALL these factors would make the components a better choice and allow me to keep wheels on the back of the car (Stag in my case) rather than trust the original components with unknown provenance and previous dismantlers dissembling methods (which could involve caveman processes) !
Please don't take my comments above as an advertisement or endorsement for CDD or any other manufacturer or process of keeping the wheels upon any Triumph. Sometimes in life and after researching with due diligence you make a choice which you have to stand by, which I have done with mine. I trust that the choices you make for your car (and let's not forget your safety and those of your passengers) also works out.
Mick Richards
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So for clarity, this is a TR4a but with a US spec “live axle” which has deep dish rear springs ?
Stuart will have worthwhile input on this, his rear leaf springs are more the almost flat spring profile on his TR4a live axle.
My initial thought is have you checked the axle for secured position as regards attitude ? I would strap a couple of lengths (4 foot) of square 2” section and straight to the tyre as near to the centre ( depending on wheels) as possible. Project the timber backwards Parallell to the ground and with help measure the distance between the ends of the timber and another measurement taken close to the tyre. You are looking for a similar measurement, if it isn’t it sounds to me like the axle is fitted at an angle.Mick Richards
PS: I suppose you used new nylocks to secure the axle to the U bolts ? Tighten them up to torque ( 30 lbs ft from memory) no I don’t think the nylocks will have moved, but I do know that the axle U bolts will stretch a little under subsequent tightening and relax the pinch on the axle allowing movement.
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Happy Birthday Hamish, hope your 2024 preparations go well.
Mick Richards
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29 minutes ago, Phil Read said:
Given the number of triumphs on the road it is hardly a major issue. If you are going to thrash the car round a curcuit or you like doing wheelies fare enough, things are bound to break. But frightening owners who drive steady and do limited mileage into replacing expensive parts is something else.
Well the forum search box will tell you the story Phil, you can review the various posts from TR owners who have had the stub axle snap, or the hub split inside itself. You'll also finds the quote from a reconditioner there who said..."There are many reconditioners who now won’t rebuild existing hubs, a spokesman for one claimed about 20% weren’t suitable for rebuilding being fractured inside," if he’s correct that’s a worrying number of failing hubs in use that could suffer the ultimate fate. As I've said previously these "Innsbruk" rear suspension cars including the Triumph Stag, and the big Triumph saloons are all suffering breakages and the rate will accelerate as their "life" slowly expires. As you can see from the quote from a "company" employee now a TR owner, these failures were known to occur on the Big Triumph saloons even back in the 1970s when they were young and their mileages were approaching the 100k mark.
I don't see why you are worried, if not knowing that there are a number of failures every year with these components is your preferred state, then even though it's now been pointed out, you still have the option of carrying on as you are. However if you think that swapping to new hubs will reset the original Triumph clock then a pair of original design hubs can be bought and fitted to the standard drive shafts for pretty reasonable money (under £800 I'm told). I preferred to remove the failure possibility from my Stag and fitted new hubs and CV shafts complete, not a choice made in fright, but a choice made because in my case I believe it's a risk too far NOT to change them.
Your car, your choices.
Mick Richards
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I think this subject is done to death Keith but here's a review of some of the reports and failures
Now the hub has snapped, take the opportunity, look deep within, ...see the fretting marks on the matching surfaces, this hub has been cracked INSIDE and continued to hold together for some distance, over weeks and maybe months, until tested and driven to destruction... by the driver...could have been you. The problem with these parts are they are very inaccessible, built up components with difficult processes to split them apart which often means a 20 ton plus press and a oxy torch, if they weren't cracked before hand, they stand a good chance they are afterwards. There are many reconditioners who now won’t rebuild existing hubs, a spokesman for one claimed about 20% weren’t suitable for rebuilding being fractured inside, if he’s correct that’s a worrying number of failing hubs in use that could suffer the ultimate fate.
We have the resource within the forum and over the years have catalogued these failures... many have, and their episodes are available to read from our own forum search facility, here’s just a few.
Members report ...Regarding your squeak, I wouldn't drive it until you get to the bottom of the cause, my 6 had an annoying squeak from the rear audible at low speeds, when I took it to Enginuity for them to have a look at, the cause was as per Mick's photo, my hub had cracked 3/4 of the way round the flange, so the wheel was about to part company with the car. When I had the car rebuilt I went for these http://www.vessey-classic-car-servic...m#.XzEOLC2ZMwc not cheap and they do come with their own issues but at least I know that all the wheels should stay on the car.
Members report...get new hubs and axles and if you can't afford them park the car until you can. It may not just be you who suffers but other road users. Refurbished are just old high mileage ones cleaned up and could break before you get out your driveway. The L/H stub axle broke just under the edge of the outer bearing where it couldn't be seen. It felt like a flat tyre, slowed down to about 80kph and there was a loud bang, the car (TR4a) went sideways and rolled 1 and a half times, lucky I had a rollbar* or I would not be writing this.
Spent 7 weeks in hospital and now have two hands that are not a lot of use any more and a car that is going to take some time to repair. My brother has purchased a TR6 which he immediately pulled the hubs off and found 1 hub flange with the boss broken off like in the photo and the stub axle cracked and ready to part company on the right sides its off the road now until new hubs can be obtained. I have already purchased new C/V joint driveshafts and hubs from Rimmers which are waiting for my hands to start working to fit.*(please consider this, we have lost members because a rollbar and an alloy rear firewall in front of the fuel tank have not been fitted).
Members report...We had a local member turn up an one of our meetings and we all laughed at the very obvious "squeak" every revolution of the back wheel as he slowly drove up - he is an engineer by profession and had searched high and low for the cause and even asked his local garage to investigate, all to no avail.
None of us were laughing a week later when we learned his nearside wheel had overtaken him at 70mph on the A12 in the outside lane, and by the grace of god, he managed to avoid a massive accident. The hub had sheared just as in Mick's photos - guess what, it was a reconditioned hub from a well known TR parts supplier less than a year and 1500 miles previously.AAAaahhh I hear you say, but we can crack test components these days, in fact rebuilt hubs have been advertised as such, well our Forum has a TR owner whose career has been spent NDT (Non Destructive Testing) of aircraft frames and engine parts.
Members comment...if you are going to rebuild a hub unit then seriously consider a new shaft item 42 Shaft (Stub axle).
This is one of two things that can snap and you lose the wheel. The old shaft cannot be positively crack tested.
It goes from good to broken in very short order, some of these high strength steel alloys do not help the NDEngineer (NDT...Non Destructive Testing) inspector as the period from start of cracking to failure can be very short.
Also many of these steels allow micro cracking (un-inspectable) to exist for long periods before going bang.
Aircraft parts that use these materials are usually 'lifed'....I think our original hubs are at the end of their life, they are dying.Members comment ....The rear hubs are nigh on impossible to detect prior to failure.
We cannot be definitive upon what is causing stub axle or rear hub failure, or even what mileages it is likely to occur at, being in close company to each other often losing a wheel means accumulated damage to other components. But from the increasing reports of hub problems it would be sensible to consider whether replacement new hubs at the least should be included in future spending plans, presumably this would restart the time defrayed clock and allow some more decades of use.
Members report... axle failures as components reach the limits of what these parts can stand....Years ago when I worked in the OEM motor components industry, some of the senior managers had Triumph 2000s and some did very high mileages approaching 100K in under 3 years. This problem with broken rear hubs was known even then ! That was in the 1970s ! ! We had a couple of 2000's become 3 wheelers which meant a change in policy...then the 2000's went to auction at 75K, to avoid the problem !
The original Churchill tools were more sympathetic to the hubs and stub axles when replacing bearings but as you can see back in the 1970s when these cars were less than 10 years old loosing wheels from split hubs or snapped stub axles was not unknown. The point still remains, how can any owner be sure that a reconditioned hub with new bearings is safe ? even the best practice used to split the hub and stub axle could lead to a cracked component and these parts cannot be reliably crack tested, so much is hidden within.
There are at least 3 CV different driveshaft options and another 3 or 4 different new hub options which will merge happily with your choice of sliding spine original spec driveshaft or CV (check for compatibility between all first) to suit what you want to afford. Your own cars, your own choices.
Mick Richards
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3 hours ago, iani said:
Not wanting to spoil the CDD love in, however, I thought I'd share pics of my GT6 solid shaft after it sheared on a French Autoroute. "SERIOUS UPGRADE FOR SERIOUS USERS" my ar5e!
Iani,
Not sure what your comment means regarding "spoiling the CDD love in" (people are just recounting their experiences, if you have something different to add please state it clearly for the avoidance of doubt) or your comment regarding "SERIOUS UPGRADE FOR SERIOUS USERS" my ar5e ! What does that mean and who said it ?
Given that these photos are from your GT6 "solid shaft" and many of us (me for example) don't know where you got your failed component from or the circumstances perhaps you can elucidate the circumstances and what was said by the supplier when the failed component was presented back to them.
Mick Richards
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+1 Sounds good.
After a fresh engine rebuild and break in is complete, a compression test with a note made of the compressions at least gives a reference point when checking compressions for faults in the near future.
Mick Richards
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Check out the nearest Chandlers stores, they know most of the supporting trades cos they supply bits to them.
Mick Richards
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Hi Stuart,
Got this job to do myself, do you carefully plug weld the reinforcing plate on underneath along it's long side on the angle ? I could spot weld along there also but of course it will "dimple "the bonnet skin.
Mick Richards
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Good practice from Triumph specifying their studs correctly. It’s an “ anti hydraulic” protection for the stud threads.
If you use enough PTF tape upon the last 3 turns it screws into the stud threads and then into the machined slot blocking it, and hopefully any water transference also.The lead linger finishes the sealing at the top of the stud under the washer.
Mick Richards
4a. Won’t start after full rebuild. Any ideas what to check next pse?
in TR4/4A Forum
Posted
My suspicion (and I think a few other members) is that is a massive inlet manifold leak. I've had a couple of engines where the manifold has "hung up" enough to give very bad running characteristics, which is even worse than where you appear to be...at least your engine won't run at all !
Commonly what happens is there is a bad leak on one of the Siamesed ports serving 2 cylinders, that gives an abnormally weak mixture over the 2 inlet stacks attached which unknowingly the owner seeks to cure by richening the carb serving the weak cylinders. At a certain range this crudley allows the engine to run and drive, however because it is varied by the suction within the manifold the weakness varies and so the engine will be altered by the owner to run OK at maybe 2500-3000 revs, ie cruising by richening the carb affected. However when the car runs at 1500 revs or stands at tickover the carb which is overrichened VASTLY overfuels the cylinders fueled from that carb, which fools the owner who then starts to weaken off that carb which then won't run at higher revs or even start nicely from standstill. !
Sticking the fuel directly into the engine bypasses this, and hopefully proves the point that fuel plus spark and compression will at least give a bang ! If it does I would then definitely check for an air leak on the manifold. Mask the carb fronts around the air cleaners so it can't draw air in from the back and spray the Start Pilot or even brake cleaner around the inlet manifold to head fitments, if there is a leak there the engine will pull it in and Bang ! proving the point. Then you can refit the inlets confident you are remaking a bad area.
Mick Richards