keith1948
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Posts posted by keith1948
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I think I have just diagnosed same problem on a friends car. Speedo working ok (checked in my car) but inner part of speedo cable not turning. Thanks for posting this - it is useful to have a second opinion before taking things to bits. Also thanks for note on copper washer.
Keith
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Hello all
General enquiry this - what colour is your surrey frame if you have one. Just planning to respray mine. Does anyone know what colour they should be? Mine is close to Rover beige and fits on a 1965 TR4A but shows signs of being repainted in the past.
Keith
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I've been thinking about the fan warning light issue....(Badhuis)
"As Bob says if the feed to the WL is taken from the relay input (sensor wire), then the light will not come on a little when in the air stream. But then if the relay is faulty (which can happen, in my 37 years of motoring I have had the experience of three relays which suddenly stopped working) the light will come on even if the fan is not working. Which is a false indication."
Even on the output side of the relay, the light will come on if the fan is not working. The indicator bulb will have an earth so will light up if there is power from the relay. Take the lead off the fan and power up the relay and see what I mean.
One possible but complicated work around would be to put a second relay after the first so when power flows to the fan it also operates the second relay to switch on the light bulb. The bulb won't light up in the air flow because the reverse current from the fan shouldn't operate the second relay. Also the bulb will only light up if the fan is drawing power. However not entirely foolproof because fan may draw power and still not turn because of an internal fault.
Over to you now Bob (Lebro)
Keith
Oh just to be on the safe side you could duplicate this arrangement in parallel so if one circuit failed the other would still work but getting into realms of overkill now. See what happens when you start messing with the electrics of a TR!
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Mounted the American heater valve I received yesterday. Now I can really turn off the heater with the knob!
Also installed a small warning light to check when the electric fan is on. This worked well when testing in the garage. On the road, when speed is over 50 mph, the light goes on dimly and increases with the speed. The fan motor is generating power from the airflow going through the radiator
Sounds like the circuit you have installed has a problem. The fan motor generates power when the wind blows through it. The warning light that is presumably between the temperature switch and the fan is earthed allowing the current generated by the fan to pass through it to earth. Can't immediately see a fix for this but no doubt others will know how to solve this one.
Had a similar problem once with a bad earth on the horns. When I pressed the horn the high beam warning light came on. Took a while to solve that one!
Keith
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Should I be worried???? There are 11 replies to a question about sewing machines and non for my post about riveting a surrey frame. I was always led to believe from TR adverts that TR's were for the hairy chested male (not that I am in that hairy category), but seems I have been misled
Sign of the times?
Keith
p.s. Just about to get the sewing machine set up to turn up a pair of jeans. Prefer the old hand cranked Jones to the more modern electric one - more control. Get the stronger needles for the thicker material. I relined the Surrey hard top with vinyl and I used the hand operated machine for that.
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Failure to zero on mine fixed by loosening the fixing nut on the cable and moving cable around and it will zero. Seems to be important to get the cable drive in exactly the right place to allow needle to zero. Once you have it in the right place tighten fixing slightly. Another problem where it didn't zero was caused by a blob of grease between the spinning magnet inside and the aluminium cup.
Keith
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Ah well to conclude today, the car has been driven around and the speedometer cable now positioned so it zero's properly. "Fixed" worn passenger hinge problem by moving top hinge forward a bit so door doesn't drop now when I open it. Fiddled around with the panel light rheostat and pulled a wire off so had to fix that (leave well alone if it is working is the moral of that one!).
Still to see how to fix rattling surrey top frame?
Keith
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Up early to refit 2 panel lights into back of speedometer after rebuilding the innards of one of them and soldering a couple of bullet connectors. Next step to drive it around the village to make sure speedo zero's properly. Tightening cable too tight and it doesn't zero very well.
This job started a couple of days ago after I repaired a friend's speedometer and used my car to recalibrate it. That was after fixing their fuel gauge problem (bad earth at sender end) and fitting new wiper.
Still had no replies about rattling surrey frame posting. Must be that I am the only one to try to fix the rattle. Might try making a small cup shape anvil for the round head of the rivet and try peening the other end a bit more first but I think the problems lies with the hole being too big for the rivet after 50 years of wear.
Time for a coffee and catch up on the forum.
Keith
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I have decided that the rattle from the surrey frame cannot be endured any longer. Rattle rattle rattle....
The problem seems to lie with the rivets holding the 5 sections of the surrey frame together. There are 4 solid dome head rivets that hold the frame together and a thin washer between the moving parts. Does anyone know what size the rivets are and best way to remove and replace them. Don't know whether the holes might be slightly too big for the rivets in there or how tight the frame should be. On re-assembly would PTFE washers be any good bearing in mind that PTFE expands a lot with heat so might not be able to move it at all on a hot day and it would rattle on a cold one. Also any thoughts on what original rivets might be made from? Doesn't look like aluminium and doesn't rust and is shiny. Stainless perhaps?
Any ideas or advice please before I take the plunge and take it apart.
Keith
p.s. mine is cream in colour - is this standard?
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One way of telling whether a TR4A was originally LHD (for USA market) or RHD is to look at which side of the car the loom runs. Mine was originally a LHD California car and the (original) loom is on the right even though it is now RHD. A friend of mine has an original UK RHD and the loom is on the left. The correct side for a RHD car is on the left but as I say mine is still on the right.
Keith
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Hello Chris
I have some of the Durite ones. I think you will find they are stamped 25A at one end (on the end) and this is the blow rating as you correctly state. These are ok because they are the correct ones according to the workshop manuals for a 4A. Just wonder why Moss and Rimmers are selling 35A for the 4A fuse box? I think the 4 had 35A fuses according to a USA workshop manual I saw today.
Keith
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Before I begin this post, I am aware that the newer fuse ratings are continuous and not blow. The question therefore is fuse ratings in 'old money'. The TR4/4A workshop manual states that the fuses in the fuse box should be 25A blow (12.5 continuous) but both Rimmers and Moss are selling 35A fuses for both the TR4 and 4A (I am assuming for the sake of this that these fuses are 35A blow). The only fuse that is 35A blow 17.5A continuous in the workshop manual is the horn fuse. Consequently I have been using 25A in the fuse box (with no problems). Usual reason for a fuse to blow is a short to earth and both a 25A and 35A would blow in that instance. Just wondering when it was decided by the 2 suppliers mentioned that it was ok to fit the 35A (blow) in place of the 25A (blow) mentioned in the workshop manual. Unfortunately the TR4A handbook fails to state the fuse rating. The Haynes manual follows the workshop recommendations.
I have also got the TR4/4A owners workshop manual by Kenneth Ball (Autopress) and that also states that the fuse carrier has 2 x 25A fuses and the horn is 35A (again blow rating).
Does it matter which fuse is fitted? Personally I am sticking to the 25A fuses to err a bit on the safe side. (Rather blow a fuse than cook the wires).
Also does anyone have a quick DIY way of telling whether a fuse marked simply 35A is blow or continuous. Presumably the 2 types have differing resistances but the resistance is too low for a standard ohmmeter to differentiate. I have tried a simple Wheatstone bridge and a simple Kelvin bridge arrangement to compare fuses with no success. I have a few of these fuses that I might end up ditching because I can't tell what they are.
Keith
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A bit late reading this thread but suggest you try a motor factors or battery specialist for a new battery and get one with a bit more oomph (technical term for power!). Halfords recommend a HB038 330 cranking 35 Amp hour battery. I got a Tungstone Titanium 078 490 cranking 55 amp hour heavy duty instead for less money than the Halfords one which to my mind is underpowered. Just make sure you get one with the terminals correct way round for your car. Sometimes +ve is on left sometimes on the right.
Keith
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I've never seen fuses marked with their continuous and trip ratings. Can anyone verify that?
When buying fuses you can just buy a rating that is sufficient for the load, i.e. the power (Wattage) of the load divided by the nominal battery voltage (12), rounded up to allow for inrush currents.
Pete
Hello Pete
Have a look at the Durite website in my post above (number 7) and put the part numbers in the search box and you will see continuous and blow rating for the fuses. I have several fuses with this info marked on them. Halfords fuses only have the running ampage marked on them as do most new glass fuses.
Keith
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Hello Waldi
I did try to set up a Wheatstone bridge circuit I remembered from my school physics lesson days. This device can compare resistances of different fuses but I seem to remember that it wasn't that successful. You need known fuses to compare against. If you have two fuses the same then the instrument will balance at the mid point in theory. Fuses are the same dimensions and mine don't have a colour code. If I still have the Wheatstone bridge I'll have another look at this method and also see if my new multimeter can distinguish different fuse ratings.
Keith
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Hello Rod
The subject of fuse ratings came up back in 2013. This was my note to CVTR and on the forum from that time
On page 40 of issue of TR Action no 267 is an article on new fuse ratings and risk of setting fire to your TR's wiring loom with new fuses. In Halfords you can buy glass fuses that look similar to the original lucas type BUT the power rating of eg 25 Amp is the running ampage not the blow ampage as in the older lucas parts. This is the reply (in BOLD) I received from Halfords technical dept for my enquiry (in normal text):
Customer asks:
"Older glass fuses were usually marked with a continuous and a blow rating
eg 12 Amp continuous blow at 25 Amp. NOT MARKED IN THIS WAY NOW
Fuses to the newer SAE standard are rated by their running current ie. 25
Amp running blow at much higher power. YES ALL OUR FUSES BLOW HIGHER THAN
THE RATING.
I have read of two people with classic Triumph TR's fitting what they
thought were fuses with blow ratings of 35 Amp were in fact to the newer
specification SAE of 35 Amp running power. This lead to fires in the wiring
looms of these cars because the wires were melting before the fuses blew.
What is exactly the specification of the glass fuses (HFS 146), 25 Amp blow
or 25 Amp continuous? 25AMP CONTINUOUS THEREFORE BLOWS UP TO 200% HIGHER
You also sell a multipack, HBB 102. What is the spec for these?"
ALL FUSES THAT ARE MARKED WITH A AMPERAGE ARE CONTINUOUS AND WILL BLOW UP TO
200% OF THEIR MARKED AMPERAGE.
"The customer needs to look at what the continuous he needs and the maximum
blow, for instance if he is looking for what used to be a 17.5 amp
continuous fuse 35amp blow I would use a 15amp fuse which would blow at a
maximum of 30amps, but suggest consulting a Auto electrician for advice."Tr's 2-4A use 25 amp blow fuses in the fuse box with a 35 amp in-line blow for the horn of the 4/4A. Not sure about other models but check handbook. You can get replacement fuses to the older spec fom Leamoco who have outlets on Althorpe St , Leamington Spa; Avenue farm Ind Estate, Stratford upon Avon; Vale Park Ind Estate, Evesham; Swan Ind Estate, Banbury. See www.leamoco.co.ukThe fuses are branded Durite www.durite.co.uk from Gordon Equipments in Harwich, Essex.The 25 amp blow (12.5 amp continuous) are 32mm long, part number 0-374-25 and are approx £2.76 for a pack of 10.The 35 amp blow (17.5 amp continuous) are 32 mm long, part number 0-374-35 and are the same price.These fuses are a bit longer than the Lucas original but fit fuse holders OK.DO NOT FIT HALFORDS 25 AMP OR 35 AMP FUSES BECAUSE THEY BLOW AT 50 AND 70 AMP! IF YOU MUST USE HALFORDS THEN USE A FUSE APPROX HALF OF RATING YOU NEED.You have been warned!Keith -
I have NGK BP7HS in mine which are recommended for a race engine although my engine is standard. I used to have BP6HS but they are hotter and the car used to run on after the ignition was switched off. Put this down to the hot plugs continuing to ignite fuel after ignition was off. The BP7HS are cooler plugs so this doesn't happen now. Also depends on the fuel you put in the car. I use bog standard supermarket fuel. Make sure you buy from reputable source though because there are fakes out there on eBay.
Keith
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Hello again Roger
Very interesting information regarding fake NGK spark plugs above. I use NGK BP7HS in the 4A. It used to run on (diesel) after switching off the ignition. The cooler running BP7HS rather than BP6HS solved the problem. The engine in mine is standard but the BP7HS plugs seem to work better with supermarket fuel.
Also I wasn't the only one a couple of years ago to fill up at the Morrisons in Brecon at the Welsh weekend and have the car overheating, coughing and spluttering on the way home. Fresh petrol cured that one.
I have a set of Motorcraft AE22C that are supposed to be equivalent to BP7HS or Champion L82YC or L81YC but haven't fitted those as yet.
Keith
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Hello Roger
A cautionary tale regarding a playing up wiper motor. Mine on the 4A was slow, erratic and occasionally stopped altogether. So I fitted a recon unit. Still had the same problems. Eventually tracked down the problem to a loose fuse in the fuse box. Cleaned the holder and fuse, closed the bits that hold the fuse a bit and hey presto fault has disappeared. Suggest you trace the wiring and check and clean all the contacts. On the 4 and 4A the heater, flasher units and the wiper supply wires all join at the voltage stabiliser. The supply wire then goes back to the fuse box. There is also a bullet connector that links the wiper circuit to the flasher unit and optional reverse light switch. This is located under the dash above the steering column and is very difficult to find. It just "appears" out of the wiring loom. Obvious when you eventually find it. Also check the earth to the wiper motor.
The problem with the loose fuse connection was that there was then insufficient power getting to the wiper motor especially when the heater was switched on.
Switch 3477 on my 4A has black earth wire to pin 7, red/LG to 4 and Brown/LG to 8.
Pins arranged as below
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
For fast speed switch connects 4 to 7
For slow speed (2nd position) switch connects 4 and 8 to 7.
At the wiper motor end the green wire is the supply direct from fuse box via voltage stabiliser connection as described above.
The red/LG wire from the switch connects to the red/LG wire on the motor, brown/LG to same on motor. Black wire from pin 7 on switch goes to earth. Black wire on motor to earth. Basically the switch is used to earth the red/LG and brown/LG wires to the black earth wire that appears out of the loom with these wires next to the wiper motor. Took me a while to figure this out. In the wiper motor the fast speed wire (red/LG on mine) also connects to the self park as well as direct to the armature. The slow speed requires both the red/LG AND brown/LG wires to be connected via the switch to earth. At the motor the brown/LG wire connects (on mine) between the high speed resistance and field winding. I keep referring to how mine is wired. Other cars may be wired differently depending on what previous owners have done ( or bodged).
So
White wire from ignition to fuse box, Green wire from fuse box to voltage stabiliser B terminal. From same B terminal connection on stabiliser one green wire goes to the heater fan unit and the other goes via double bullet connector under dashboard to the wiper motor. (you will see 3 green wires on the B terminal, one is the supply from the fuse box). The other green wire at the double bullet connector goes to the flasher unit. Where the loom appears through the bulkhead next to the wiper motor you have 4 wires coming out of the loom. Green is the supply, red/LG and brown/LG connect the switch to the wiper motor and the black is the earth from the switch that is grounded next to the motor. There is also the black wire from the motor that should be earthed on the inner wing.
Hope this all makes sense 'cos I'd hate you to connect it up wrong and set fire to the car to add to your worries!
Good luck
Keith
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Hello Roger.
Original wiring diagram for TR4 shows positive earth whereas original wiring diagram for TR4A shows negative earth. As you say many people have changed their TR4's to negative earth.
Thanks Peter for your detailed reply. I have a 131-556 positive earth stabiliser that has both male and female connectors on both terminals. The one on the car from 1965 that is still working ok has male spade connectors. So I guess I need to ask myself the question if it has been working ok for the last 53 years do I really need to carry a spare or at that age might it pack up at any moment. Who knows?
Keith
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Just thought I would share some information regarding voltage stabilisers. Both Moss and Rimmers specify the part number 128484 for both TR4 and TR4A. However this stabiliser is for positive earth only vehicles (i.e. original TR4 spec). As such they will not work on the TR4A. Instead you should fit the TR5 unit part number 148876A which is for negative earth cars (TR4A and later). This is because these later units have solid state internals and need to be connected with correct polarity.
The original stabilisers had a bimetal strip with a heating wire coiled around it. Voltage was regulated by the rapid make and break of the bimetal strip. Didn't matter whether positive or negative earth for those types. Would work either way.
Earlier Moss solid state units had part numbers 131-555 for negative earth and 131-556 for positive earth if you have one of those.
This all came to light this morning when I turned out the spares in the boot to find that my spare voltage stabiliser was a positive earth rather than negative for my 4A. Also discovered the spare spark plugs had gone rusty and were not the same as in the car and the spare radiator cap had disintegrated. Time for a spares spring clean I think to see what other junk I have been driving around with in the boot.
Keith
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Hi Roger
Let us all know what the cause was when you find it. The suspense (or should that be suspension?) is killing me!
Keith
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Hello Roger
Someone in the boot trying to get out??
Seriously though - check the diff mounting points - I had one (offside front) split once, and wasn't easy to see until the diff was removed. Also check that dampers are ok - had fixing bolts on one of those loose once. Exhaust knocking onto floor somewhere - had that as well, it was knocking when taking up drive as you describe. Also check that floor pan is fixed to chassis securely at rear mounting points.
Might be play between propshaft and diff as you describe but as you say - not an option you want to go down yet.
Good luck
Keith
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Inside of a surrey top. Insulation more likely to be some sort of foam. No need for asbestos in roof. The vinyl usually is in sections with wire frame behind holding into steel roof. If you decide to make a new vinyl liner using old one as a pattern then DO NOT mark it out in biro. The ink will go into the vinyl and be impossible to remove. I made this mistake (marking back of fabric with biro) and ink marks came through over weeks later. Only solution was to respray vinyl with vinyl paint (from Halfords). Work of art relining a steel surrey top requiring some skill with a sewing machine and exact measurements to get a good fit.
Regards
Keith
What have you done to your TR today?
in General TR Technical
Posted · Edited by keith1948
Sorry you misread my tongue in cheek reply. Didn't really intend you to add extra relays and duplicate circuits - as I said "into realms of overkill". Leave it as it is.
I have an 8- bladed plastic fan as used on TR5's on my 4A and never found the need for an electric fan even in the south of France with temperatures of 37C in the shade. Car has never overheated but maybe just lucky.
Keith
p.s. spent today refitting now working speedo into friends car only to discover another problem - the inner part of the cable not turning. Suspect the angle drive on the overdrive is faulty. Oh hum - no rest for the wicked.