D1092
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Posts posted by D1092
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I saw a lovely Italia (but aren't they all?) at Techno Classica this year. But really, wouldn't it be better to save your money and get a better car? Same designer, upgraded mechanicals, and sporting open-top motoring the way it's meant to be. Of course I'm speaking of the TR4, aka the Triumph Italia II...
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I know this car if you want to contact me direct at Doretti.com
tom
I've been off the board for a while, and just found this post. The craigslist ad is long gone. Just for the historical record, can someone post a note here on the car's asking price and general condition?
Thanks,
Vittorio
D1092
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The body bolts you think are 1/4 28 are not they are an English tread of some sort..... You can retap your captured nuts to 1/4-28 and use SAE bolts probably ok with some tjread sealer best check depending on the Qualty of bolts you get. or replace all with 1/4-28
Tom
Hmm, I think the British standard fine thread (BSF) had 26 threads per inch on a 1/4" bolt, whereas this definitely has 28. BA-threaded bolts, another English alternative to BSF, are fairly rare in this size, and also would have had approximately 26 tpi.
Whitworth or BSC (coarse) threads are often mixed up with SAE/UNC threads, from what I understand, but on the fine threads the distinctions are more clearcut. I just needed to find a bolt that was complete enough for me to get to grips with-- all the other ones had rusted away or snapped at the head!
Since all of my bolts (save one) and captive nuts were damaged, I'm definitely going to replace them all, so for me ultimately this is academic. Hopefully some future Doretti restorer finds this thread (no pun intended!) useful.
Best,
Vittorio
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Hello again,
Answering my own question: the size of the bolt is 1/4"-28tpi. (I found one that was just about salvageable after some work with a wire brush and a die.)
Anybody reproducing accurate early Doretti floors yet? No? Well, just thought I'd ask...
Best,
Vittorio
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Hello all,
Having been distracted by some side projects recently, I haven't spent much time on my Doretti restoration. I'm trying to remedy that now, and over the coming weeks I hope to make some good progress.
Next steps are some cleaning, welding, and painting on the frame and suspension components. Part of that will be welding new captive nuts to the frame all around-- not one of them survived the body removal wholly intact. Either because the bolts were damaged in removal, or because my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, I am having trouble figuring out the size and thread pitch of the original bolts. Can any of the Doretti gurus on the board shed some light on this? I will have to put in a fairly large hardware order, and I want to make sure I get it right.
Thanks for any help you can provide. I hope the recent quiet on the board is because everyone is out enjoying their cars!
Best,
Vittorio
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Hi Vittorio,
Connecticut is a "no Title" state for a vehicle of this age. Hence you do not need a title to register the car for the road. I know that there are other examples of this depending on where you are in the US. THe problem arises in states where a title is required. Still, I believe that you can get around this depending on who you are dealing with at the respective DMV (Registry Office). There is also a service offered in ?Alabama where a title can be "recreated."
As far as sending a vehicle outside the US I presume some proof ownership would be required.
Mike
Thanks Mike, good points. A corollary to vehicle registration being handled at the state (as opposed to federal) level is that you have 50 different sets of registration rules to deal with. Some are looser than others, so there are services-- sometimes of dubious legality-- that promise to exploit loopholes in distant states to get you a title in your own state.
Connecticut does not require titles for older vehicles, and there are one or two other states where this is also true. But that may not wash with the authorities in another state if the buyer of the car were seeking to register this Peerless in a "title" state--if, say, I were to try to register this Peerless here in Texas. ("Where's yer title, pardner?") That's why Connecticut will in fact issue titles for antique/vintage cars... it just doesn't *require* them. A quibbling point, perhaps, but one can see how things could get very complicated.
Again, I'm no expert. I'm just trying to put out some warnings here in case any of you EU types were thinking of picking up this Peerless. Bottom line, talk to a lawyer with vehicle import/export expertise before you buy!
I'll shut up now...
Vittorio
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I thought it might be worth noting that the Doretti windscreen sold at the Buy-It-Now price of US$500-- so obviously someone did not read this forum before clicking the Buy button!
More recently, a fine condition Doretti nose badge sold for around US$275. Not cheap, but find another! Hopefully it went to someone who will actually mount it on one of the cars, rather than just putting it on the shelf... though I am as guilty of hoarding fun stuff as anyone.
Regards,
Vittorio
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I've no idea if it's worth $12K in the States, but shipped to UK or Europe it's going to equate to £10k+ before the cost of a complete rebuild.
Optimistic, at least as far as this side of the Atlantic is concerned . . . .
The last line of the listing might be a killer: "Car will be sold with a bill of sale." This means that the seller does not have the state-issued document that confirms his/her ownership of the vehicle; in the US this document, the title, is the key for transferring ownership of a car. Getting a title for a vehicle that does not have one can either be quite simple or, more often, next to impossible, and without a title you may not be able to register the car. There is also the small matter of not being able to assure that the vehicle was not, at some point in its history, stolen, though more often titles are simply misplaced when an owner dies or when a car languishes in the back garden for years.
I'm no expert, but I would guess that lack of an ownership document would make the car very difficult to export as well; at the very least I would want solid legal advice on that before attempting it. It is very hard to transfer ownership of a car across state lines in the US without a title, so I would guess that international transfers would be at least as difficult. But again, I'm not an expert.
Hmmm, squinting closely at the photos, I can make out what looks like a warning label... yes, the lettering is very distinct... looks like it says "caveat emptor"...
Regards,
Vittorio
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you might this page helpful
Thanks for the link, Alec; I had a hazy memory of reading that page before.
I emailed Pilkingtons a year or two ago re Doretti 'screens, and never had a response from them. Does anyone know if they are still able(/willing) to reproduce the early Doretti windshields, and what the cost might be these days?
Regards,
Vittorio
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Hello all,
There's a Doretti windshield-- NOS or early aftermarket-- up on eBay at the moment:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Doretti-Win...sspagenameZWDVW
The seller is in California.
Can anyone tell from the photos and/or measurements whether this is an early or late windscreen?
Regards,
Vittorio
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We used a 2-post lift, but I think you haven't one at hand. When you put long thin wooden sticks in the bolt holes, you can let them act as guidance pins: lowering the body will put the long thin wood stick through the appropriate holes of the body, thus guiding the correct placing. If you fale attempting, the wood sticks will simply brake, without damaming paint ect.
Menno
Menno, that is BRILLIANT! Thank you for the excellent tip. Like all great ideas, it's so obvious once it's described. Thanks again.
Regards,
Vittorio
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The starting bid of 450EUR rules out looky-lous like me unfortunately! But if you need one, well, where are you going to find another?
I wonder if there's a way to determine which car this came off of. I was under the impression that nearly all the Italias were accounted for-- someone have a Michelotti machine missing its LH front wing?
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Hello all,
Below are some photos of the frame-to-inner-shell spacers pulled from my Doretti during stripdown. I mentioned in an earlier post that some of them were heavily corroded; you can see in the photos the effects of the aluminum spacers reacting with the steel components they were sandwiched between.
I also said earlier that I thought the spacers were rather crudely formed. Looking at them again, I might not say that as strongly, but they do not seem to be all that carefully machined. The close-up of the large spacer shows what I mean. Thoughts anyone? Do these look like the parts that have come out of other Dorettis?
And here's a pic of #1092 as of last weekend. The bright orange stains on the front of the chassis are rust marks from the coolant: it contained no antifreeze, only water, and as a consequence there is an awful lot of rusty goo in the cooling passages of the engine. (The engine's to the left of the photo, on the dolly.) I do not intend to rebuild the engine right away-- I want to see if my Daimler V8 idea will pan out first-- but when I do finally get it apart I will be curious to see what the effects of that corrosion might be.
Regards,
Vittorio
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Not on this one. I absolutely agree with your logic re pulling them apart and cleaning the contacts. Modern relays are not so easy to trouble shoot, and while a solid state relay (e.g. a big MOSFET) would do the job forever, these cannot handle big reverse voltage spikes so must have suppressor diodes around them.
The concern I have is that although the logic for the control circuit is pretty simple, I don't understand why anyone would you use modern electronics to solve a problem related to having a dynamo when using an alternator solves the problem more effectively!
Good point about the Lucas o-drive relays. My question answered.
I quite agree about the generator/alternator thing-- which is why I won't be posting any circuit diagrams and parts lists for DIY voltage regulators.
-10C to 50C? In a Triumph? Guy, you are TOUGH!
Regards, Vittorio
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I don't have an opinion about the New Hampshire firm mentioned in the link, and perhaps they do quite good work, but it's worth noting that one doesn't have to go to a specialist for a solid-state voltage regulator.
If you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron, and not afraid of a little Web research, I think it would not be too difficult to assemble one of these yourself. There's nothing mysterious about the technology, and all of the components are cheap and readily available. I don't have any circuit diagrams or links handy, but a quick Google search turns up a lot of potentially useful leads (no pun intended).
Please note that I am not suggesting that the right thing to do is to run out and acquire a quantity of circuit boards and an electrical engineering degree; I'm just saying that if you are concerned about the cost of the components and/or are on the wrong side of the current exchange rate, you have an alternative to consider. You may do a little reading and find that it is much simpler than you thought. Maybe think of it as a fun project for a rainy afternoon.
All of which reminds me of a question I have been meaning to ask: is there a reason to fork over for Lucas-branded overdrive relays for Laycock A-type-equipped cars? As noted elsewhere in the forum (for example here), the Lucas relay is simply a logic circuit like any other relay. Are we just paying for the correct appearance? I'm not being snarky here, just trying to confirm for myself that I don't have to spend $45 on the overdrive relay if I don't want to.
Regards,
Vittorio
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The usual favorite is when doing a head in situ it has been forgotten until the last minute when a "Bu***r" moment happens
and it goes back in the excess bits box as it will only fit with the head nut removed and the manifold nut slackened right off.
Stuart
Stuart, I think you're dead on with that observation. Digging through my boxed-up TR4 didn't turn up the rear lifting bracket; presumably at some point someone did as you described. It's either collecting dust in the EB box in someone else's garage-- or it got picked up by the scrappy and is now part of a bridge someplace.
I got by with the front lifting eye and some angle iron bolted to a couple of exhaust manifold studs. I'll probably pick up a new rear bracket, though, as I don't think my solution would have worked if the carbs were still fitted.
Thanks again for the help, all.
Vittorio
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The pictures jogged my memory; I had a faint recollection of having seen something like the front lifting eye whilst boxing up a TR4 which I'd bought as a pile of parts. This evening I went digging in the box labeled "Engine-External", and sure enough, there was the front eye. Great, will slap that on the TR2 then.
But the quote above from the concours guide makes me wonder: is there a rear lifting bracket lurking in those boxes somewhere? Naturally it could have gone missing when the car was dismantled-- or at some point in the 40 years prior, come to that-- but were all cars fitted with the front lifting bracket also fitted with the rear one?
Thanks again,
Vittorio
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Thank you all for the replies and helpful photos.
Raymond, I do hope you find some time to clean up that dirty engine bay!
Thanks again,
Vittorio
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Does anyone have pics of (original or new) engine lifting brackets fitted to a TR2/3/4? I have never seen a set actually in situ, and I am puzzled as to where precisely they are bolted in. The exploded diagrams in the parts books just don't help-- I'm stumped!
Thanks,
Vittorio
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"such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe" . . .
sorry Vittorio, but even for an American unfamiliar with the European market of the 1950s, that just has to be one of the all-time gormless observations. The Borgward Isabella range was one of the most advanced productions of the 1950s, some would argue the best mass-production car of its era. The Isabella Coupe was a Grand Tourer unequalled in its day, and still a practical vehicle half a century on.
Alec, there really is no need to be quite so insulting. Let's keep the discourse on a polite level.
I will point out that nothing you said about the Isabella is contradicted by what I wrote. I find the car's outward aspect "lovably goofy." I made no observations about its engineering quality or practicality. And calling me (I assume you meant me) "an American unfamiliar with the European market of the 1950s", is flatly comical. We have never met!
In contrast, Graber was a one-horse wonder, his designs hardly moved on over 30 years. Refreshing though they may have been in the late 1930s, by the 1960s they were long outdated. Restrained and discreet styling perhaps, but most and possibly all of them were rustbuckets - speaking as someone who has owned a couple. Quality of construction was not Graber's strongest suit.I'm not sure what you're saying here. The styling was outdated by the 1960s? Well, that's certainly arguable, though not particularly relevant as the cars I mentioned were earlier examples. And if we're judging coachbuilders by their cars' resistance to rust, I'm not sure we'll find any that would meet your standard. One could say the same about the Doretti, to judge from the stories on this board.
But this is not the Hermann Graber discussion group, so...
As for Doretti #1037 . . . . I had a bunch of snapshots of that car in the mid-1970s. I can't recall if it was still in the hands of its original owner or whether it had just changed hands at the time. It had been off the road for only a handful of years, and was supposedly original - albeit looking somewhat jaded. A rather odd shade of green, which I haven't seen elsewhere, blessed with bizarre replacement bumpers, and looking decidedly non original to my eyes. There was a Doretti offered for sale at auction (at one heck of a price) in the Netherlands last year, which bore a considerable resemblance in colour - if it was the same car, I'd guess it must have had some fairly extensive restoration.The replacement bumpers have themselves been replaced, with one-off repro items (from where? Tom?) that are reasonably close to the originals. #1037 has not been significantly restored-- at least not recently-- though it has apparently been repainted in spots, and a certain amount of mechanical recommissioning was carried out. Does anyone know the chassis # in the auction Alec refers to? I read about that as well, but have nowhere seen any identifying information.
Your comments on spacers are interesting - I saw the body removed from the chassis of my old Doretti in the hands of its next owner, and those of a couple of other Dorettis. Each of them had nicely machined spacers of varying dimension. I'd guess that the chassis construction was more consistent than that of the body ? Yours being an earlier car, the "unfinished aluminum" may be original - or perhaps evidence of an earlier rebuild ?Given the condition of other elements of the car, I'd be very surprised if there had been an earlier body-off restoration of #1092-- though nothing's impossible. But judging from Tom's comments there were some running changes in certain components of the body, so perhaps later cars had more finely-finished spacers. Alternatively, maybe the spacers in #1092 were in fact carefully machined, but the effects of decades of corrosion make them look like crude lumps. Though one wonders, if Swallow went through the trouble of carefully sizing and machining the spacers, why not paint or otherwise coat them while they were at it? I'll post some photos for information and commentary.
Thanks for your comments, Alec, it's always good to hear from the experts. Though I'd be ever so grateful if you'd modify your tone just a bit.
Regards,
Vittorio
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I actually made a tool to form the jack hole in the pans. I trued the edge of a Churchill Hub puller and made a tapped cup to fit the thread on the hub puller and simply pulled the offset in! I wheeled the offsets in around the edges.
tom
That's a great idea, Tom. I have just started thinking about the kit I will need to assemble in order to remake the floor panels. It's going to be enough work that I might as well make a spare set or two of floor panels and offer them around!
I was in Essen, Germany, last week for Techno Classica, billed as the world's biggest classic car get-together. It was something like a million square feet of vintage cars, from the pedestrian to the oddball to the truly astounding. Lots of bread-and-butter classics were mixed in-- it was fun to see what attention was attracted by such local mass-produced-but-lovably-goofy machines as the Borgward Isabella coupe. And it was interesting to see some very grand prewar machinery in the metal, such as imposing examples of the Horch marque.
Most interesting to me, though, were the low-production cars that appealed to the sophisticated dollar (or pound, or deutschmark, or CHF) back in their day, and which still don't get the same attention as well-known brands. Several examples of Swiss coachbuilder Graber's art were on display, including a very elegant Talbot-Lago and, my personal favorite, an absolutely perfect Alvis coupe. (You can see the latter in a nice spread in this month's Thoroughbred & Classic.) There were several OSCAs, and the only Cisitalia I have seen outside of the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. VW sponsored an extensive display that included a lovely Dannenhauer & Stauss roadster, which proves there is beauty to be found even in the humble Beetle.
Undoubtedly the star of the show for me was Doretti #1037. It has to be one of the most original Dorettis, with only 40,000 miles on the clock and only minimal recommissioning work since its discovery in the back of a garage a few years ago. It's for sale by a Dutch dealer, and I'm going to try to see if we can get it back to the US (despite the dealer's lackadaisical approach to selling). But the real value for me was to be able to climb all over it to photograph all the original elements that my own car is missing-- original pattern carpet, upholstery, etc. It was an invaluable opportunity to take notes for my own restoration.
Speaking of which, I've got #1092 down to the frame and mechanical bits now. Note for future restorers: though I did manage to get the front tub off by myself, it really is a two-person job! Also, Swallow used small, rather sloppy spacers made from unfinished aluminum to align the tubs where they contacted the frame, and it's worth keeping track of these as you disassemble. I won't reuse them, though, at least not without sanding them down and painting them-- there was a lot of corrosion. Now I need to remove the engine/trans, front and rear suspension, and steering, and it's off to the blaster's to have the frame taken down to the metal and refinished.
I was surprised at how quickly I could get the car stripped-- they really are quite simple-- and I'm looking forward to starting the rebuild. Of course, this is where things start to get expensive...
Regards,
Vittorio
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Well, since I managed to offend the Peerless community (and defenders of the punctuation-challenged) with my last post, I thought I'd post a photo from my Doretti restoration so that those who found my comments objectionable could gloat over my struggles!
Brief history: my car spent all of its life in Florida until coming into my ownership in late 2007. I believe I'm the fifth owner. Apart from paint and upholstery, it appears to be mostly original.
I started the stripdown in earnest about two months ago, after moving the car to a new workshop with more elbow room than the old storage unit. The interior-- what was left of it-- is stripped out now, and I have removed all of the exterior panels and the rear 'tub'. I plan to strip it down to the chassis, and once that's blasted and painted I'll build up the mechanical components on that. Once that's coming along, the blasted and painted front and rear inner panels will go back on, then finally the exterior panels and cockpit finishing. Simple (fingers crossed).
Having spent five decades in sunny climes, the car does not have much in the way of rust, apart from surface sprinklings-- sea air, don't you know. The exception to this general statement was found in the footwells, where some brown lace was found. This appears to be mainly the result of a burst battery at some point many years ago. Bummer! So, new floor panels will be in order. My plan is to fabricate the panels from fresh sheet, joggle the edges to match the originals, and then move the reinforcing channel strips from the old panels to the new ones. Ultimately I hope the replacements will be good enough to fool even the most eagle-eyed Doretti expert. This looks like a fun little task-- and it will be good to have something being built *up* while I am spending my time tearing the car *down*.
Attached is a photo of what remains of the old floor panels. The new ones won't offer Flintstone-style braking!
Regards,
Vittorio
Texas, USA
PS- Is anyone planning to be at Techno Classica Essen next month? Please PM me if so. Would love to meet and talk Doretti.
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Vittorio
The spacing between the scuttle bolt holes should be at 13 1/4" centres.
Hope this helps?
Cheers
Andrew
Andrew, thank you for the reply. That spacing wouldn't match the holes in my car, so it must have been another screen type.
Regards,
Vittorio
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Hello all,
Though I tend to think that the best TR derivatives are aluminum-skinned, those of you who find plastic fantastic might want to check out eBay. There's a '59 Peerless for sale in Colorado, USA, at USD 15,000 or best. The auction ends March 16, 2009, and the link is below.
WARNING: This auction listing should not be viewed by purists or people with taste. The half-literate, barely intelligible text of the listing is of a piece with the bizarre mods, but as far as I can discern, this car has been thoroughly mutilated. 280Z engine, anyone?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...A1%7C240%3A1308
Yours in car snobbery,
Vittorio
Doretti #1092
Doretti
in Italia, Swallow Doretti, Peerless & Warwick
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There are a few of us owners on the list, but as you can see we're a shy bunch!
If you look back through the archives of the forum, you can see a few Doretti restoration photos. Finding a car can be a bit of a challenge, but they are out there. You will find many, many more "project" Dorettis than restored cars, though: owners of restored Dorettis tend to hang onto them!