NEW ACQUSITION

[John McCormack]

It has been beautifully restored by a well known and greatly respected long term Triumph man. I have had to align some panels better and still have the bonnet, passenger door and boot to look at. I'm not overly fussed if they can't be improved, it is intended as a nearly everyday car; club runs, shopping, errands etc.

It drives superbly and as I get used to the Webers, cam etc it just gets better. It is my wife's car and she is getting used to it well.

I don't know what they are worth over there but I paid $39,500. About 19,300pds. 

[Motorsport Mickey]

A very reasonable price for a great looking car. Hope you and your wife enjoy it for years.

Mick and Margaret Richards

[stuart]

6 hours ago, John McCormack said:

It has been beautifully restored by a well known and greatly respected long term Triumph man. I have had to align some panels better and still have the bonnet, passenger door and boot to look at. I'm not overly fussed if they can't be improved, it is intended as a nearly everyday car; club runs, shopping, errands etc.

It drives superbly and as I get used to the Webers, cam etc it just gets better. It is my wife's car and she is getting used to it well.

I don't know what they are worth over there but I paid $39,500. About 19,300pds. 

Thats a pretty good price if the resto has been done well.

Stuart.

[tim hunt]

10 hours ago, John McCormack said:

Hi Tim. Yes, Sue has fallen in live with the Michelotti influence and I like it too.

I'm working my way through the various issues it had with a win this morning getting the overdrive working. A disconnected wire to the solenoid was easily found and fixed, but still no od. Out with the seats for new diaphragms and off comes the tunnel. The od had not been adjusted, once done and all is good with a test drive this morning.

All the very best to you and to Sue.

A great result with the o/d John. We always hope  for a simple electrical or adjustment issue. Internal problems tend to be expensive!  Attached pic nicely shows the difference in overrider size and placement on the 4 vs 4A. Cars are mine and the late Derek Pollock's highly original 4 at Land's End on the Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run in 2021. 

Best wishes to you and Sue for Christmas and 2025.

Tim

 

 

 

[John McCormack]

8 hours ago, tim hunt said:

A great result with the o/d John. We always hope  for a simple electrical or adjustment issue. Internal problems tend to be expensive!  Attached pic nicely shows the difference in overrider size and placement on the 4 vs 4A. Cars are mine and the late Derek Pollock's highly original 4 at Land's End on the Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run in 2021. 

Best wishes to you and Sue for Christmas and 2025.

Tim

 

 

 

Yes ours has the same overriders as does yours. I believe there were changes made to TR4s in the beginning of 1963. Ours is a late 63 car, maybe they had the smaller overriders??

[Kiwifrog]

8 hours ago, John McCormack said:

Yes ours has the same overriders as does yours. I believe there were changes made to TR4s in the beginning of 1963. Ours is a late 63 car, maybe they had the smaller overriders??

 

If the only thing to worry you is the size of your over riders then you are onto a winner!
As stated before you have a really nice car, the 4 is my personal favourite even though I don’t own one anymore, just a 3a and a 6

cheers

Alan 

[TRTOM2498PI]

8 hours ago, John McCormack said:

Yes ours has the same overriders as does yours. I believe there were changes made to TR4s in the beginning of 1963. Ours is a late 63 car, maybe they had the smaller overriders??

I have a 1964 built TR4, registered 65. It has the larger TR4 overriders, so appears yours has 4A items.

 

Good luck with the car.

[tim hunt]

3 hours ago, Kiwifrog said:

If the only thing to worry you is the size of your over riders then you are onto a winner!
As stated before you have a really nice car, the 4 is my personal favourite even though I don’t own one anymore, just a 3a and a 6

cheers

Alan 

I fully agree with that John. Derek's car was built in 1963. I attach a picture of a TR4 recorded on our DVLA website as having been built in 1965 - so a VERY late car. You will see it has the same deeper overriders as the earlier car, set inboard of the headlights.

Tim

[John McCormack]

First technical question.

The fuel gauge and temperature gauge do not read accurately.

The fuel gauge goes to just under half when the tank is full. It then reduces as fuel is used but not in a linear way. It sometimes reads a bit higher than it did a few minutes previously, or a bit lower.

The temperature gauge rises as the engine warms up and gets to about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. It then varies, sometimes dropping down very low. It doesn't rise above about 1/3. I suspect the thermostat might be staying open and a low setting on the automatic cooling fan.

But my question is; as the symptoms on both gauges are similar is it possible that a defective voltage stabiliser is causing these symptoms on both the fuel and temperature gauges?

Thank you in advance.

[John Morrison]

Most likely John, they are the only two items linked together at the  the VS.

Sometimes shown by the fuel guage staedily rising during a journey, and the 

temp going into the Red at the same time, without actual overheating??

Old mechanical VS are Not polarity sensetive, new solid state ones are.

John.

[Lebro]

It does sound as if the voltage stabiliser is faulty. If you bypass it you should find that both gauges read higher than they should. The best test would be with a voltmeter across earth, & the "I" terminal of the satbiliser. it should read approx 10 volts. Note if it is an original mechanical stabiliser you would need to use a moving coil type voltmeter, not a DVM.

Bob

[John McCormack]

22 hours ago, Lebro said:

It does sound as if the voltage stabiliser is faulty. If you bypass it you should find that both gauges read higher than they should. The best test would be with a voltmeter across earth, & the "I" terminal of the satbiliser. it should read approx 10 volts. Note if it is an original mechanical stabiliser you would need to use a moving coil type voltmeter, not a DVM.

Bob

Thanks Bob. I got a new VS today, unfortunately no change in the symptoms. 

I then tried to trace all the earths and found the final one, at the fuel tank was very very loose. I tightened this earth up and when I turned the ignition on the gauges started moving straight away, which they hadn't done before. Success I thought.

However, a false dawn. The symptoms remained.

The fuel tank is full. About a minute after starting the fuel gauge has risen to just under half, it then moves slowly down to below a 1/4 and back up to under half at random.

The temp gauge rises to about the 50 degC position on the dial, and then drops down to just above the bottom line and back up to about 50 deg temp. My infrared sensor tells me the engine is 75-80degC at the sensor. The electric fan is on by then and the engine temp stays around this 75-80.

I then studied the wiring diagram more closely and see it has the 3 green wires going to the B terminal on the VS and the single green/black wire to the 1 terminal on the VS. This car had been wired the opposite way with the green wires to the 1 terminal and the gb wire to the B terminal.

So I reinstalled the old VS and then wired in accordance with the diagram. Neither gauge moved at all.

I then returned the wiring to as it had been previously and back to square one, the gauges do give a false reading, the symptoms remain.

My final check was bypassing the VS and yes both gauges read at the top of the gauge range.

I am at a loss. Electrics aren't my strong point.

Any pointers that might help me? I think I might need to find an old auto electrician, they are increasingly rare here.

Edited December 13, 2024 by John McCormack

[Lebro]

Still sounds like the VS to me. On another thread someone had two new VS's which did not work, but a third one did, so there could be a duff batch out there.

Bob

[RobH]

2 hours ago, John McCormack said:

So I reinstalled the old VS and then wired in accordance with the diagram. Neither gauge moved at all.

The logical conclusion would be that having been wired wrongly the old VS has been damaged.  The next step after that would be to install the new VS with the wiring as per the diagram, but bearing in mind that having been connected wrongly  at first that too may now be U/S. According to your description you did not do that but rather put the wiring all wrong again.  

If you can do a bench test on the new VS it would be worth doing to prove it is still working.  Connect B to the battery supply , connect the earth and measure the output from I to earth with a voltmeter. Should be around 10v. 

If it isn't or you cannot do that test then your best bet is yet another new VS connected as per the wiring diagram. 

 

[John McCormack]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

The logical conclusion would be that having been wired wrongly the old VS has been damaged.  The next step after that would be to install the new VS with the wiring as per the diagram, but bearing in mind that having been connected wrongly  at first that too may now be U/S. According to your description you did not do that but rather put the wiring all wrong again.  

If you can do a bench test on the new VS it would be worth doing to prove it is still working.  Connect B to the battery supply , connect the earth and measure the output from I to earth with a voltmeter. Should be around 10v. 

If it isn't or you cannot do that test then your best bet is yet another new VS connected as per the wiring diagram. 

 

Thank you for this Rob and Bob.

I just tested both VS. Power from the +ve battery to B, earthed the VS on bare metal and I to the battery -ve.

I get 10.19v on the new VS.

The old one gave 0.70V.

It appears I've been fortunate, the new VS seems to be OK. 

Tomorrow, Saturday, I'm joining other Register members to rationalise our 2nd hand spares store. I'll drive the TR2 the 200kms down to the Southern Highlands and back, the TR4 job will be for Sunday.

I've also found that while the TR4 alternator is charging the charging light faintly glows. Possibly a failed diode. I may have caused it doing this work, thinking it was going to be a straightforward 5 minute job I didn't disconnect the battery. But I do think I've seen a faint glow from the charging light from when I picked the car up. Another job.

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by John McCormack

[rcreweread]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:44 AM, tim hunt said:

I fully agree with that John. Derek's car was built in 1963. I attach a picture of a TR4 recorded on our DVLA website as having been built in 1965 - so a VERY late car. You will see it has the same deeper overriders as the earlier car, set inboard of the headlights.

Tim

Just to add to this particular theme, I don't believe any TR4s were fitted with the later 4A over riders when they left the factory - I would concede that possibly CKD or similar cars could have been assembled with the later parts if the earlier ones were not available, but I think it is far more likely that the original over riders were damaged on the road ( highly vulnerable part) and were replaced by what was to hand.

TR4 front over riders have a captive nut on the inside into which a stay is bolted - this goes through the grill ( you can see the holes in the grill) and is bolted to the inside of the wheel arch - 4A over riders have no such mounting provision so I don't think any new car would have been sent out in what would clearly have been an unfinished state.

Just as an aside, 4A over riders are handed because they fit on the outer curve of the bumper, so in order to face directly forwards, each side at the rear is different - TR4 over riders are not handed as they fit further towards the middle of the bumper blade where it is straight.

Hopefully the attached photos of some of my surplus units from both models will illustrate these points - it is noticeable how much bigger the TR4 ones are compared to the 4A ones - in fact they are exactly the same external shape as the rear ones but with out the number plate light holes - you never know, you might find some TR4 units at your group meet tomorrow!

 

Cheers Rich C-R

[roy53]

Well done rich

i just got back from photoing the difference to post.

I have one good 4 one + several 4A  in various condition to sell if anyone wants.

Roy

[John McCormack]

20 hours ago, RobH said:

The logical conclusion would be that having been wired wrongly the old VS has been damaged.  The next step after that would be to install the new VS with the wiring as per the diagram, but bearing in mind that having been connected wrongly  at first that too may now be U/S. According to your description you did not do that but rather put the wiring all wrong again.  

If you can do a bench test on the new VS it would be worth doing to prove it is still working.  Connect B to the battery supply , connect the earth and measure the output from I to earth with a voltmeter. Should be around 10v. 

If it isn't or you cannot do that test then your best bet is yet another new VS connected as per the wiring diagram. 

 

Installed the new VS wired in accordance with the wiring diagram and I now have all the instruments working correctly. The alternator also seems to be charging, and I can't see the charging light glowing, but I'll check it later this evening when it isn't so bright, early summer here and it is very hot and sunny.

Very pleased.

Just need to fit new diaphragms to the seats and she is done, except for improving panel alignment which I'll do over time.

[John McCormack]

17 hours ago, rcreweread said:

Just to add to this particular theme, I don't believe any TR4s were fitted with the later 4A over riders when they left the factory - I would concede that possibly CKD or similar cars could have been assembled with the later parts if the earlier ones were not available, but I think it is far more likely that the original over riders were damaged on the road ( highly vulnerable part) and were replaced by what was to hand.

TR4 front over riders have a captive nut on the inside into which a stay is bolted - this goes through the grill ( you can see the holes in the grill) and is bolted to the inside of the wheel arch - 4A over riders have no such mounting provision so I don't think any new car would have been sent out in what would clearly have been an unfinished state.

Just as an aside, 4A over riders are handed because they fit on the outer curve of the bumper, so in order to face directly forwards, each side at the rear is different - TR4 over riders are not handed as they fit further towards the middle of the bumper blade where it is straight.

Hopefully the attached photos of some of my surplus units from both models will illustrate these points - it is noticeable how much bigger the TR4 ones are compared to the 4A ones - in fact they are exactly the same external shape as the rear ones but with out the number plate light holes - you never know, you might find some TR4 units at your group meet tomorrow!

 

Cheers Rich C-R

Thanks Rich. I have been advised by the TR4 people here that all our TR4s were standard cars imported direct from the UK. The only CKD TRs here were 130 or so early TR3s with Lockheed specifications, I've got one. They did have a couple of Australian unique features in the upholstery and carpets but otherwise were stock TR3s.

The previous owner who built this car had had a few TR4/4As over the years. He had built a couple before this one. I expect the overriders, chrome strips etc were what he decided to fit to it. It has a Sep 63 Heritage Certificate and Commission number with the original engine.