Misfire on 2

[CalT]

Hi all,

After waiting a long time, my 6 is finally back in the garage, running and driving having had all the suspension and brakes overhauled, a lot of work to the fuel and ignition system, new tyres and overhauled wheel, and some restoration on the paintwork.

I’ve registered the car as historic and so Tax and MOT is all dealt with and I’m ready to get the car on the road for the first time since 2008! Just at the wrong time of year of course! 
One of the few outstanding issues on the car is there is no fuel getting to number 2 injector. All the usual bleeding etc has been done but with no joy.

It was recommended to me to have the MU overhauled, but this was only done around 6 years ago by Neil Ferguson. 
I’ve done some research and it is possible it’s the Banjo bolts so I’ve had two delivered from KMI. Is this likely the cure or are there other possible causes? 

Cheers,

Cal 

[harrytr5]

2 and 5 are the usual culprits with the banjo bolts and o rings as you have discovered. Injectors can go at any time and will need bleeding.

You will get there and do not give up. The smile at the end of the drive will be so worth it.

Lets us know when you have it sorted.

Regards Harry

[CalT]

I’ll change out the Banjo Bolts and hopefully that will solve the issue.

am I right in saying there is no easy way to do this and the MU needs to come out? 
Would the recommendation be to remove the MU from the pedestal or the pedestal from the engine? 
I’ll then need to re-setup the timing on my CR car which I’ve gotten wrong in the past following the brown workshop manual as this is apparently for a CP setup.

Cheers

Cal 

[DaveN]

52 minutes ago, CalT said:

I’ll change out the Banjo Bolts and hopefully that will solve the issue.

am I right in saying there is no easy way to do this and the MU needs to come out? 
Would the recommendation be to remove the MU from the pedestal or the pedestal from the engine? 
I’ll then need to re-setup the timing on my CR car which I’ve gotten wrong in the past following the brown workshop manual as this is apparently for a CP setup.

Cheers

Cal 

Remove the MU from the pedestal take a couple of photos of the end of the MU. Do not disturb the engine. Swop out the banjo bolts keeping the orientation the same. Then refit, maybe a little grease to hold the plastic drive dog in position. And Job done…. Check for leaks!

[John L]

Make sure when you put back the banjo fitting to put the bung seal in first and make sure its well in position before you put back the fitting, hope that makes sense?  Be careful to centralise the o ring on the fitting as you tighten it up.

John

[CalT]

Hi all,

Just out in the garage now, have changed over the banjo as above. Car is now not starting (appreciate there will still be air in the fuel lines so am bleeding through).

Oddly, I keep getting the car to take and then die, but, with one injector removed for the bleeding process it is running up and idling albeit very roughly. 
I’m clearly missing something here? 
 

Also, still no fuel at number 2 and the banjo I removed looked in fine condition… 

Cheers,

Cal 

[Chris Hale]

Sounds like the injector has got something blocking it

Take it off and blow through with an airline. You can use a foot pump if you don’t have a compressor you just need an adapter to put into the injector and beep pump away

[CalT]

6 minutes ago, Chris Hale said:

Sounds like the injector has got something blocking it

Take it off and blow through with an airline. You can use a foot pump if you don’t have a compressor you just need an adapter to put into the injector and beep pump away

Yeah I had read about that as well, I took It off and blew through just with breath while holding open the end. No blockage evident, there was a bit of fuel in it when I took it off so possibly just more bleeding required.

Im a bit more concerned about the car only running when one injector is pulled. I’ve checked and got a good cone of fuel on 4 out of 6 injectors, 4 still needs bleeding and 2 is the original issue. 
 

Cheers

Cal 

[Mike C]

You might have a blocked filter in the injector. These are not shown in the manual and many have been removed by now and not replaced, if you still have them  the injector filters  and cleaning process is shown here:

https://www.trclub-spain.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TR6-Injector-overhaul-.pdf

[Rob Salisbury]

If you swap No2 injector onto one of the lines that's giving a good cone and vice versa you can decide if the problem is with the injector or the feed through No2 banjo and fuel line. Cheers Rob

[CalT]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies so far. Just to clarify, I now seem to have a different issue.

On Thursday, the car was running with no issues other than no fuel at injector 2. I suspected the Banjo bolt and so yesterday I replaced this.

Since replacing the banjo bolt the car will no longer run, I have confirmed I have good spray on injectors 1,3,5 and 6. When turning over, the car is almost starting and then stalling very quickly. 
 

Injectors are all new (within the last 5 years) from KMI, metering unit overhauled within the same time frame and throttle bodies also overhauled earlier this year.

The other thing I noted yesterday was that when I had an injector pulled for bleeding purposes the car would start and run? 
The only two things I can think that could be causing this is a timing issue or an air flow issue, however having not adjusted anything on the car yesterday I don’t see how these issues could have occurred.

Once I have the car running again I will go back to bleeding No2 and hopefully get a result, but any advise on the other issues would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Cal 

[PodOne]

I'd suggest you first check for sparkand ensure the HT leads are attached in the right order. Change the plugs as all the things you have done will have seen them become potentially fuel soaked, once this has occurred from my experience it can give rise to all kinds of running issues/poor/non starts. 

Then revisit number 2 injector by swapping it with one of the good ones and see if the issue goes away and if transferred to another cylinder its the injector at fault. 

 

 

[RobH]

25 minutes ago, PodOne said:

ensure the HT leads are attached in the right order.

+1   Did you take them off for access to the MU ? 

[CalT]

2 minutes ago, RobH said:

+1   Did you take them off for access to the MU ? 

No, to access the MU I undid the 3 bolts holding it to the pedestal then pulled it backwards to access the No2 banjo. This is what I’m struggling with as almost nothing was altered (intentionally).

I wondered about the plugs being soaked but then why would the engine run with one injector removed? I’m baffled to be fair. 

[PodOne]

But she won't now run at all even on 5 cylinders?

And if she will run on 5 is that with only Number 2 removed or will removal of any other allow her to run?

Given number 2 is initial problem it doesn't completely eliminate the possibility that the firing order was not correct in the first instance I'd suggest confirming it 1-5-3-6-2-4 as if I remember correctly the firing order printed in some sources is wrong. 

 

[CalT]

2 minutes ago, PodOne said:

But she won't now run at all even on 5 cylinders?

And if she will run on 5 is that with only Number 2 removed or will removal of any other allow her to run?

Given number 2 is initial problem it doesn't completely eliminate the possibility that the firing order was not correct in the first instance I'd suggest confirming it 1-5-3-6-2-4 as if I remember correctly the firing order printed in some sources is wrong. 

 

Yes correct, will now not run on 5 cylinders. But with any injector removed will run but very rough. 
 

I was mulling it over there, it may not be that the firing order is out but that the timing is out on the ignition. Removal of the injector letting air in to allow the engine to run? 
 

I think I might have to go back to square 1 and set up / recheck the ignition timing which is something new to me! 
I’ll double check the firing order before I do anything. 

[CalT]

So firing order is correct, 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4.

[CalT]

Have checked the dizzy as well and the rotor is pointing towards 1 when I set 1 to TDC so this seems right also. The only thing still to confirm is that the MU timing is right, I’ve had a look there and number 6 port opens just after 1 is at TDC which also seems right, but I’ll refer to the manual to confirm.

Edited October 20, 2024 by CalT

[stuart]

You haven’t got the air bleed screwed right in by any chance?

Stuart.

[CalT]

22 minutes ago, stuart said:

You haven’t got the air bleed screwed right in by any chance?

Stuart.

Stuart,

Do you mean the one at the end of the throttle bodies? 
It had crossed my mind, but this was all set up before and the car was running, I haven’t touched it since. Will have a look tomorrow and adjust to see if this helps.

Cheers. 

[CalT]

Well, that was a result. Last night I had the MU off again and refitted just to be sure, this morning attempted to restart with the same issues. As suggested above, I opened the air bleed screw on the manifold (quite a bit actually) and the car started, pushing the throttle stalled the car so I wound the bleed screw out further and tried again, this time the revs took off and stayed up around 2000rpm. Wound the bleed screw back in almost to where it had been and the car idles nicely now around 700 - 800rpm. Possibly something had been causing a blockage in there.

Further bleeding on the injectors and I now have good spray on all 6, unsure if the Banjo bolt Was the cure or if it was just the bleeding.

Needless to say I am rather happy this morning.

Thanks to everyone for the help! Im sure I’ll be back with the next issue soon! 
 

Cheers,

Cal