c.hydes Posted October 8 Report Share Posted October 8 My Bosch fuel pump has died (see my recent post), and am now looking to purchase a new one. Can someone please help me select a new one that is a genuine Bosch or other quality pump that is actually available or indeed is suitable from our usual TR suppliers . Additionall I would be gratefull for the specification requirements ie ideal flow rate, pressure limits current consumption etc. I know the PRV is set to 105psi but what are the max and min limits for flow and pressure. Thanks in advance Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted October 8 Report Share Posted October 8 I fitted a Sytec. Have had no issues with it. IIRC it draws about 4amps. I measured it after there was a thread on here about current draw. https://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk/sytec-otp044-hi-fuel-pump-motorsport-0580254044-45754-p.asp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve 286 Posted October 8 Report Share Posted October 8 TRGB sell sytec fuel pumps or complete kits I have one of there kits on my car for the last 4 years and it’s been good have a look on their website it may be of interest to you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c.hydes Posted October 9 Author Report Share Posted October 9 18 hours ago, DaveN said: I fitted a Sytec. Have had no issues with it. IIRC it draws about 4amps. I measured it after there was a thread on here about current draw. https://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk/sytec-otp044-hi-fuel-pump-motorsport-0580254044-45754-p.asp Thanks for the reply Dave, the link doesn`t seem to work, but looking at the link details it looks like a Sytec OTP 044 is used to replace a Bosch 0580 254 044? Is that what you brought and your Sytec draws 4 Amps at 105psi - correct? I only ask as I thought a Bosch 0580 254 044 was a high current 15Amp version. Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c.hydes Posted October 9 Author Report Share Posted October 9 18 hours ago, Steve 286 said: TRGB sell sytec fuel pumps or complete kits I have one of there kits on my car for the last 4 years and it’s been good have a look on their website it may be of interest to you Steve thanks. Can you share which Sytec Pump was supplied from TRGB? Cheers, Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve 286 Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 If you look on their website I think they only do one fuel pump for the PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 30 minutes ago, c.hydes said: Thanks for the reply Dave, the link doesn`t seem to work, but looking at the link details it looks like a Sytec OTP 044 is used to replace a Bosch 0580 254 044? Is that what you brought and your Sytec draws 4 Amps at 105psi - correct? I only ask as I thought a Bosch 0580 254 044 was a high current 15Amp version. Colin. Yes a Bosch 044 does draw a lot of current. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve 286 Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 This is the TRGB kit SYTEC FUEL PUMP CONVERSION SUITABLE FOR TR5/6 PI MODELS Part Number: FUEL PUMP KIT £339.95 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve 286 Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 Sorry for some reason it didn’t all come over to you the prices plus VAT THIS KIT INCLUDES ALL PARTS REQUIRED TO REMOVE YOUR ORIGINAL LUCAS FUEL PUMP. DESIGNED AND BUILT IN HOUSE, THIS KIT IS DESIGNED TO COMBAT THE OVERHEATING AND CAVITATION PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ORIGINAL UNITS OR OTHER KITS FITTED INSIDE THE BOOT. COMES SUPPLIED WITH LARGER I/D FUEL TANK OUTLET PIPE, PRE FILTER, MOUNTING BRACKET AND THE ALL IMPORTANT SYTEC FUEL PUMP. DESIGNED TO BE MOUNTED OUTSIDE THE CAR TO ALLEVIATE OVERHEATING PROBLEMS THE KIT IS BEST USES WITH A RELAY KIT (SEE PART NUMBER TRGB3). FUEL PRESSURE MUST BE CHECK AND ADJUSTED TO 95-100 PSI. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, c.hydes said: Thanks for the reply Dave, the link doesn`t seem to work, but looking at the link details it looks like a Sytec OTP 044 is used to replace a Bosch 0580 254 044? Is that what you brought and your Sytec draws 4 Amps at 105psi - correct? I only ask as I thought a Bosch 0580 254 044 was a high current 15Amp version. Colin. 4 hours ago, c.hydes said: Thanks for the reply Dave, the link doesn`t seem to work, but looking at the link details it looks like a Sytec OTP 044 is used to replace a Bosch 0580 254 044? Is that what you brought and your Sytec draws 4 Amps at 105psi - correct? I only ask as I thought a Bosch 0580 254 044 was a high current 15Amp version. Colin. That’s the one ☝️ about £90 I also use the Malpassi PRV Edited October 9 by DaveN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 4 amps for any fuel pump available providing 105 psi for our PI system sounds to good to be true. Can anyone confirm the current draw for the Sytec OTP 044 pump? Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Hale Posted October 9 Report Share Posted October 9 Bosch do a new pump the 200 series which they claim is their replacement for the 044 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 8 hours ago, Chris Hale said: Bosch do a new pump the 200 series which they claim is their replacement for the 044 Look at the current draw. Surely that can’t be right? 17A at 12v I’ll go slave an ammeter in to the circuit and check mine again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 Here's the current draw chart for the Sytec 044 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c.hydes Posted October 10 Author Report Share Posted October 10 19 hours ago, Steve 286 said: Sorry for some reason it didn’t all come over to you the prices plus VAT THIS KIT INCLUDES ALL PARTS REQUIRED TO REMOVE YOUR ORIGINAL LUCAS FUEL PUMP. DESIGNED AND BUILT IN HOUSE, THIS KIT IS DESIGNED TO COMBAT THE OVERHEATING AND CAVITATION PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ORIGINAL UNITS OR OTHER KITS FITTED INSIDE THE BOOT. COMES SUPPLIED WITH LARGER I/D FUEL TANK OUTLET PIPE, PRE FILTER, MOUNTING BRACKET AND THE ALL IMPORTANT SYTEC FUEL PUMP. DESIGNED TO BE MOUNTED OUTSIDE THE CAR TO ALLEVIATE OVERHEATING PROBLEMS THE KIT IS BEST USES WITH A RELAY KIT (SEE PART NUMBER TRGB3). FUEL PRESSURE MUST BE CHECK AND ADJUSTED TO 95-100 PSI. Thanks for all the information Steve. All of the parts and improvements that TRGB supply in their Pump Kit I have already fitted to my carr, so I just need to source a new suitable pump and hopefully a few additional adaptor fittings to accomodate the new pump. I did phone TRGB yesterday but unfortunately their PI injection expert is off sick. They did tell me however that they now use Sytec instead of Bosch pumps in their kits due to Bosch unexpected failures over recent years. Alledgedly, Bosch now manufacture in Eastern Europe and quality is not as good as Germany. Something to do with not using the correct flux in soldering to the internal terminal connections. So is that a coincidence that my Bosch pump (3 years old and hardly used), has just gone open circuit ???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 1 hour ago, Andy Moltu said: Here's the current draw chart for the Sytec 044 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 That does show around 17.5 amps at 7 bar (just over 100 psi). How does the 4L/min @100 psi stack up against the Lucas original? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnC Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 Here are the pump test specs for the original Lucas pump. If my arithmetic is correct, it should have delivered 1.14 litres/min (15g/hr, 0.25g/min). So the Sytec is well capable of meeting the demand. OTOH, the Lucas pump could do that at 5.2A, whereas the Sytec draws 17A+. Hence the need for beefier wiring switched through a relay. Hope this helps, JC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom B Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 This has been the subject of a previous post. I measured the current draw on the fuel pump in operation. The 11A is probably a bit too much to put through the ignition key so the use of a relay is sensible. If you take apart the old cylindrical fuel pump cut-out it really is made to a price and for reliability a modern alternative as suggested is a must. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 Here we go again (sorry): The major advantage of the original Lucas pump is it’s relative low (volume) flow rate hence low current draw. All current Bosch pumps I looked at supply more flow and draw at least 9A, some even much more. This leads to an increased energy dissipation, leading to quicker fuel temp increase and of course PRV-issues because it was not designed for that. That’s why the Bosch xxx.996 pump was favoured for our PI’s, which is no longer available. I would not encourage to find a NOS item, because the now 30-40 year old rubber seals are likely not capable of handling modern fuels (my used .996 pump started leaking within one hr. after my rebuilt, it was ok before. Criteria like ”high flow” and “motor sport” should not be considered an advantage for our cars, in contrary. I would not recommend an oversized pump that draws 17 A for our cars, despite positive experiences that others may have. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 FWIW: I have a Bosch 580.464.126, see comparison sheet I made a couple of years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted October 10 Report Share Posted October 10 (edited) 8 hours ago, Waldi said: Here we go again (sorry): The major advantage of the original Lucas pump is it’s relative low (volume) flow rate hence low current draw. All current Bosch pumps I looked at supply more flow and draw at least 9A, some even much more. This leads to an increased energy dissipation, leading to quicker fuel temp increase and of course PRV-issues because it was not designed for that. That’s why the Bosch xxx.996 pump was favoured for our PI’s, which is no longer available. I would not encourage to find a NOS item, because the now 30-40 year old rubber seals are likely not capable of handling modern fuels (my used .996 pump started leaking within one hr. after my rebuilt, it was ok before. Criteria like ”high flow” and “motor sport” should not be considered an advantage for our cars, in contrary. I would not recommend an oversized pump that draws 17 A for our cars, despite positive experiences that others may have. Waldi I agree, the high flow feature with the TR6 petrol system design just means the pump pumps more fuel, heats the fuel up more and draws more current than the original. When I look at the fueling problems the relatively small number of PI cars have I can see why the US distributors were not totally enthusiastic about importing PI cars in the late 1960's. And the fear of upcoming US anti smog laws at the time would have given them just the out they wanted. PS. Do you have a pump head vs current chart for your pump that's good enough to see if your pumps running against zero head when starting? This mat help you diagnose your starting problem. Edited October 10 by Mike C Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 11 Report Share Posted October 11 7 hours ago, Mike C said: PS. Do you have a pump head vs current chart for your pump that's good enough to see if your pumps running against zero head when starting? This mat help you diagnose your starting problem. Hi Mike, no, I have not measured that but I can try to do that when I get back home. I’m not sure a digital meter will show that clearly, and my old analog (shunt-type) meter is defective. But I will try definitely. I’m not sure if it will tell me anything helpful, because I have no base-line data (what does good look like). Or am I overlooking something? Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted October 11 Report Share Posted October 11 Hi Waldi, I was just trying to find a simple way to confirm that your hard starting could be due to slow pressure buildup in the injection system. Looking at the Sytec pump curve for example. It draws less than 10 amps when starting and increases up to something like 17.5 amps when the pump reaches system pressure and the PRV opens. If the pump stayed around 10 amps for say 20 seconds before increasing to 17.5 amps , I'd believe the system had a fair bit of air in it and the pump had to compress/purge the air before reaching system pressure. Conversely if the pump went almost immediately to 17.5 amps I'd say the system was full of incompressible petrol and the pump was working well I'd and then look elsewhere than the pump/piping&valve leaks for the cause of the hard starting. Once the pump reaches full pressure amps it would be reasonable to assume full pump pressure is being supplied to the MU. To do this check you need a current vs pressure chart for your pump and a suitable ammeter. What do you think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c.hydes Posted October 11 Author Report Share Posted October 11 Thanks for all the replies. So in the absence of a "perfect fuel pump" that is available today, is there a specification for what a TR6 PI fuel syetem needs ie flow rates, max/min pressures, including spare capacity etc, in order to choose a new replacement pump? Regards, Colin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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