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Expansion Bottle TR4


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Hi guys

 

Running a standard 4 Rad without expansion bottle (as later fitted to TR4a)

 

Should I upgrade ? Spent months in the summer topping up the rad and watching the coolant runout of the overflow...................

 

As I’m basically a coward I didn't want to find its 'natural level' in the middle of a traffic jam as per the diehards :blink:

 

If they don't need the expansion bottle why did standard triumph fit it to the 4a and every TR since ? ;)

 

With heavier traffic, worse fuel and expensive rebuilds to protect it seems the way to go. Comments/ feedback. Did you do it and why ? If not why not ?

 

I assume the coolant just syphons back when it cools down

 

Thanks in advance

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<_<

Hi guys

 

Running a standard 4 Rad without expansion bottle (as later fitted to TR4a)

 

Should I upgrade ? Spent months in the summer topping up the rad and watching the coolant runout of the overflow...................

 

As I’m basically a coward I didn't want to find its 'natural level' in the middle of a traffic jam as per the diehards :blink:

 

If they don't need the expansion bottle why did standard triumph fit it to the 4a and every TR since ? ;)

 

With heavier traffic, worse fuel and expensive rebuilds to protect it seems the way to go. Comments/ feedback. Did you do it and why ? If not why not ?

 

I assume the coolant just syphons back when it cools down

 

Thanks in advance

Hi Mike TR2s and 3s had the same problem as it was basically the same rad as in a 4, If you filled them right up they would dump water on expansion until there was room enough in the top expansion tank and then they wouldnt lose any more but by then the water level when cold was below the level of the thermostat causing hot spots. I used to find the same problem on Jaguars like XKs and MK1s &2s though E types had a large header tank that stopped that problem.

I never liked the Triumph plastic bottle idea much because i dont think that they would draw the water back because of the action of the radiator cap.

The best mod that i have found and i have fitted to my 4a is the use of a seperate header tank fitted up on the left hand wheelarch as high as possible (without fouling the bonnet) fed from the overflow pipe on the rad . This position means that the thermostat housing is below the level of water and is constantly working efficently. Then fit a blank radiator cap to the rad and a 7lbs cap fitted to the expansion tank. Since fitting this i have never had to put any water in and even in the most extreme traffic and heat conditions the temperature never goes much over normal and that is with an engine fan fitted not an electric one.

Fitting to a 4 would be similar although with the extension tank on the 4 rad you may want to fit yours to the off side wheel arch.

Hope this helps.

Stuart.

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Fitting to a 4 would be similar although with the extension tank on the 4 rad you may want to fit yours to the off side wheel arch.

Hope this helps.

Stuart.

 

 

HI Stuart

 

Thanks for the input, the headtank sounds like a good option.

 

Interesting comment regarding the 4a expansion bottle, I assume it must work to some degree otherwise why bother ?

 

Anybody got a 4a with a working expansion bottle/ rad system ?

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Hi Mike,

 

I have never been able to keep the water in the rad on my TR4A, despite the plastic bottle, and suffered high temps but never boiling. I am not sure how the water is supposed to get back into the rad as the cap will seal the rad when pressure drops.

 

Last winter I fitted a TR7 expansion tank similar to what Stuart describes above, only I tapped into the pipe along the side of the engine and also fitted a pipe from the rad overflow to the expension tank ensuring no air locks. I have driven quite a lot this summer in quite high air temperatures and long motorway driving and the temp gauge never moves above half way. Result!

 

I will get photo if you require.

 

Graeme

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Hi Mike ,

 

I spent quite some time trying to get an expansion bottle

to work on my 3A , but never succeeded . The very slightest

leak anywhere in the circuit will destroy the vacuum needed

to pull water from the bottle on cooling.

 

http://mikek.9online.fr/coolant.htm

 

Don't forget that the fact of having water in the bottle does

not mean that the level in the rad is ok .

 

As they say , your mileage may vary .

 

Cheers ,

 

Mike.

http://mikek.9online.fr/index.htm

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Mike,

 

while dealing with my TR4A overheating problems I learnt that I had to ask for a 'double acting' radiator cap for my radiator if I wanted the water to suck back from the bottle. This was hard/impossible to find in Canberra for 4psi, easier for 7psi. The cap didn't look much different except for an extra neoprene washer to seal the cap to the top of the radiator neck.

 

If there are leaks in the system, it sucks air back in rather than the water in the bottle, when it cools down.

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Hi Mike,

 

I have never been able to keep the water in the rad on my TR4A, despite the plastic bottle, and suffered high temps but never boiling. I am not sure how the water is supposed to get back into the rad as the cap will seal the rad when pressure drops.

 

Last winter I fitted a TR7 expansion tank similar to what Stuart describes above, only I tapped into the pipe along the side of the engine and also fitted a pipe from the rad overflow to the expension tank ensuring no air locks. I have driven quite a lot this summer in quite high air temperatures and long motorway driving and the temp gauge never moves above half way. Result!

 

I will get photo if you require.

 

Graeme

 

Hi Graeme

 

A photo would be great, thanks. I like the idea of a TR7 header as it keeps it in the family :D

 

Thanks also to the following (with comments)

 

LittleJim > Double acting Rad cap: If this a pucka TR part ? Any part numbers, supply ?

 

Mike Kitchener > Golf header tank: neat idea

 

Stuart > Thanks again: Well, from this feed back the expansion bottle idea doesn't work. Surprised that the warranty claims didn't sink Standard Triumph before BL did.

That sucks :huh:

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Mike

 

The TR7 header tank looks good, but my experience is that its not big enough to do the job properly. This may be because I run my car BST82B harder / hotter than most, but its something a few of the wilder TR4's have suffered with. I tried a bigger volume steel tank (off a Granada I think) which worked, but in typical Ford style the bottom rotted out.

 

I now run a plastic Audi 80 tank on the bulkhead up by the wiper motor and this is fine.

 

Interestingly the works TR4's didnt run a header tank (although 4VC sports one these days - which i think is the TR7 / Dolly type) and having had 3VC on the doorhandles last weekend on the Rally of the Tests it did not suffer at all - although some topping up of the radiator was necessary over the weekend as part of the normal running checks etc.

 

My advice to you would be to fit an overflow if you really really reall think it necessary and see how you go. Fitting a header tank in the wrong place can be as much of a problem as not having one at all and the water circuit in the 4 cyl engine seems quite sensitive to flow interuptions and eddying etc.

 

Regards

 

Tony.

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I now run a plastic Audi 80 tank on the bulkhead up by the wiper motor and this is fine.

 

Interestingly the works TR4's didnt run a header tank (although 4VC sports one these days - which i think is the TR7 / Dolly type) and having had 3VC on the doorhandles last weekend on the Rally of the Tests it did not suffer at all - although some topping up of the radiator was necessary over the weekend as part of the normal running checks etc.

 

Tony.

 

Thanks Tony

 

Another VW/Audi solution !

 

Interesting comment ref 3VC, they obviously did run in period without the expansion bottles and I had always assumed that the 4a had them added to avoid spending all summer topping up B)

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Hi

 

Nice and simple. I cut a tee piece into the heater side pipe and run a hose from there to the header tank.

 

The tank needs to be positioned above the top of the thermostat housing - so the only place you can do this and clear the bonnet is up on the bulkhead by the wiper motor.

 

Ive tried lots of other things - including a boss on the top of the therm housing, TR7 tank, rad top tank - this was all suggested to me by Simon and Steve at TR Enterprises and does the job.

 

The only 'improvement' I would make is to source a steel tank instead of plastic, or have a nice ally one made. Otherwise this is the best ive seen thus far.

 

Regards

 

Tony

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Mike,

 

Pucka radiator cap? Suspect that's like looking for geniune TR4A wiper blades or genuine TR4A petrol. But the concour people might know. Don't have a part no. got mine at Autoparts Phillip ACT. Supply at 7psi doesn't appear to be a problem in Oz. Suspect you can get a 4psi job in the UK.

 

I just wanted to point out that a standard cap just has to let the water out at a predetermined pressure. With the overflow bottle, the cap has to do this, plus let the water back in when things cool down, and stop air leaking past the top of the cap.

Edited by littlejim
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Mike,

 

Attached is a picture of my TR7 tank mounted as Tony suggested near the wiper motor. The black pipe goes to a Tee in the heater pipe and the small dia green pipe to the radiater overflow with a flat cap(no spring and seal) on the radiator.

 

The mounting bracketry needs to be modified to make it more rigid.

 

Graeme

Edited by graeme
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Hi

 

I found that this bottle hadnt got enough volume to cope with the expansion, so the hoses kept blowing off !

 

Maybe it will be ok on a car with a standardish engine - the location is the best I could come up with.

 

Regards

 

Tony

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Mike,

Attached is a picture of my TR7 tank mounted as Tony suggested near the wiper motor. The black pipe goes to a Tee in the heater pipe and the small dia green pipe to the radiater overflow with a flat cap(no spring and seal) on the radiator.

Graeme

 

Graeme

 

Thanks for the photo (and Tony for the volume comment) on the TR7 tank.

 

Lots to play with. To ensure full value from the process I am fitting the original expansion bottle fist, then try and find the correct two stage 4psi cap, then ditch that lot in favour of a VW Audi unit incorrectly mounted to foul the shut line, then re-site to the bulk head, loose a couple of hoses and finish, some time next year, with the TR7 item..............should have caught up by then ;):D

 

Thanks for all the help guys, lots of good ideas and mistakes to avoid

 

'pose I could just leave well alone and see if it really does overheat (but wheres the fun in that) B)

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:blink: Dont shout about it Ian sods law means that the next time you use it it wont!!!

Stuart.

 

I seem to be in a minority here, but mine works fine.

 

Ian.

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I seem to be in a minority here, but mine works fine.

 

Ian.

 

I fitted one to my 4 this year immediately prior to 3 weeks spent touring Italy in the height of the summer. This too woks perfectly and is a great improvement. Didn't loose a drop and can check water level at a glance.

 

Paul.

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I am running the standard small TR4 long neck radiator and I live in Tropical North Queensland. My engine has been warmed up a bit and I cant imagine how they sold TR4's in hotter countries with that tiny radiator.

To solve my overheating problems I am running 2 electric fans pulling through the radiator and an electric water pump as well as the standard pump. I have an 82C thermostat and the 2 fans and the electric pump kick in at 85C. obviously I have had to get rid of the engine fan to find space for the electric fans and I am running a Holden Harmonic balancer and a 75 amp alternator to supply the fans, pump and 100watt headlights with plenty of juice. The fans only ever kick in at low speeds and when travelling at over 70kph there is plenty of airflow to keep the engine cool no matter how hard I push her. I must admit that the idea of a header tank sounds good and I think that might become a christmas project.

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I fitted one to my 4 this year immediately prior to 3 weeks spent touring Italy in the height of the summer. This too woks perfectly and is a great improvement. Didn't loose a drop and can check water level at a glance.

 

Paul.

 

 

Paul (& Ian)

 

Thank you

 

At last, somebody has admitted they can/ do work ;)

 

I thought they must have worked at sometime, any tips on either getting them working or keeping them working. Any other members with working systems or is it just 2 out of, say, 2000 cars.

 

PS: ?How many 4/4a's in the register :huh:

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My 4 has a simple tank, with feed from rad overflow into the bottom of the tank, which hangs from the N/S front panel support bracket, so it's below the radiator cap level.

 

This seems to work just fine, never had any water loss problems-seems to work fine, and very simple.

This was fitted by the previous owner who had the car from new, and spent time in South Africa with it as well.

I'm running a single 16" blower fan, getting no problems at all.

 

My 6 is fitted with a high performance radiator core (£158!!) and the same fan, trying to get the thing to warm up is the biggest challenge! Have to change the stat whne i've got the head back on again (dodgy new cam follower TT1209 from Moss-ovaled and sticking when cold-bugger.

 

Rob.

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Anybody got a 4a with a working expansion bottle/ rad system ?

 

Hi Mike,

My 4A has the standard system, never had a problem, I get new rad caps from local Halfords every couple of years..(check they have the upper seal that allows the syphon system to work)... no probs......... same system at a higher pressure works on my 2.5Pi saloon........ it's the condition of the upper seal that's the key to working properly.

Cheers,

Rob

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I agee with Rob. When we bought Lynda's TR4A it regularly pumped water out of the overflow and created an under-bonnet fountain. I discovered the radiator cap had a fibre gasket instead of the top rubber seal. Greasing this liberally with petroleum jelly provided a temporary fix, followed by the addition of an odd rubber seal I found lurking in the garage. Finally, I fitted a new radator cap from TRGB and at present it is still working (famous last words!).

 

I can't help feeling that a large header tank is a much more reliable solution though, so I really don't understand why the factory introduced the overflow bottle. Oh yes I do - £££!

 

I should also add that I never had any problems with the standard system on my previous TR4A in 3-4 years.

Edited by BrianC
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