Steering rack

[RobH]

To be fair I suppose the poor design isn't down to Moss or the other aftermarket suppliers, it's down to Triumph who made the gash fixing arrangement in the first place.  All other motor manufacturers seem to have done it the right way so the aftermarket racks are constructed to suit those cars (given that they are probably not made exclusively for TRs). 

A new rack would probably cost rather more if it was made specially strengthened for a TR so would people pay for it?  

There did ought to be much more visibility of the issue though and if new strengthened racks cannot be sourced the available ones should only be sold with the appropriate mounting safety measures. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by RobH

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

2 minutes ago, RobH said:

To be fair I suppose the poor design isn't down to Moss or the other aftermarket suppliers, it's down to Triumph who made the gash fixing arrangement in the first place.  All other motor manufacturers seem to have done it the right way so the racks are constructed to suit (given that they are probably not made exclusively for TRs). 

A new rack would probably cost rather more if it was made just for a TR. 

Triumph used the rack mounting system of clamping the tube on virtually all their cars with manual steering racks from 1960 onwards to the late 1970’s.   MG adopted the same rack and tube clamping arrangement on the Midget from the early 1970’s.   Now there is a car brand that would have balked if the design was dubious.  That is a lot of factory built cars with the same rack mounting arrangement.  Had it been a questionable or dangerous construction the car maker would have been toast.  Triumph was not and is a brand retained by BMW along with Standard and Riley.   So a factory fitted safety critical item seems not to have failed in the way these reproduction ones have.  
The original maker clearly understood how to retain the steel tube in the alloy pressure die cast pinion housing.  Probably by die casting onto the steel tube.  Not a cheap push together process?

Let us not forget that low volume constructors like Lotus also used the Triumph design rack, albeit with a reduced length rack bar.

I think the original steering supplier was Alford and Alder. Long gone now.  Check Graces Guide.

[PodOne]

37 minutes ago, RobH said:

To be fair I suppose the poor design isn't down to Moss or the other aftermarket suppliers, it's down to Triumph who made the gash fixing arrangement in the first place.  All other motor manufacturers seem to have done it the right way so the aftermarket racks are constructed to suit those cars (given that they are probably not made exclusively for TRs). 

A new rack would probably cost rather more if it was made specially strengthened for a TR. 

 

 

Hi Rob

Personally if was in the market of selling a replacement rack with a known design issue even if the issue was a long standing one from Triumph I wouldn't have it on my conscience.  I would rather sell at a better design at a higher price and me pay the extra but I know many others would choose not to. Add on the cost of the retrograde kit to the rack it would likely be no more expensive?

So from what I understand am I correct in assuming even a reconditioned OEM Triumph rack has the same potential to fail as above? If so there's no alternative than to fit the extra hardware and hope it stays put!

Andy 

Pete got a reply before I finished! So it would seem the OEM racks reassuringly don't see this failure despite the design. I'll have to dig out the old one.

Edited August 16, 2022 by PodOne

[RobH]

OK I stand corrected but as you say Peter the OEM is long gone.  So it would seem refurbished OEM racks are really the safest option, which sort of eliminates the aftermarket 'quick racks' such as the one in question unless the mounting gizmos are used, to catch it if it fails.

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

9 hours ago, RobH said:

OK I stand corrected but as you say Peter the OEM is long gone.  So it would seem refurbished OEM racks are really the safest option, which sort of eliminates the aftermarket 'quick racks' such as the one in question unless the mounting gizmos are used, to catch it if it fails.

 

Agree it looks as though repairing old original racks may be the only way to go unless the security of the steel tube can be assured by the repro rack maker.

You can make a sort of  ‘quick’ rack with original items.   You need a pinion from a very early Herald with the solid mounted rack like an early TR4, and fit it in your TR rack.   It has a different amount of teeth than the standard TR item.   It is what Lotus used to specify and is covered in Costin and Phipps book on chassis design and build.   Good section in there about the ratio of readily available racks at the time of writing.   You will also need a TARDIS to go swooping back in time to get a steady supply of the pinion etc. if you want to create your own.

Edited August 17, 2022 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Z320]

8 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

The original maker clearly understood how to retain the steel tube in the alloy pressure die cast pinion housing.  Probably by die casting onto the steel tube.

Good point,

because also with the original clamps the pushing forces from the passenger side on the steering bar

try to push the aluminum housing off from the tube via the pinion.

An „benefit“ for this failure in my opionion is the use of solid aluminium brackets (like a vise) instead of the softer original fixing.

I‘ve been recommended by a member of another forum (he does this when ever this is possible on a "steering thread") 

to continue to use the original clamps to protect the rack from too much stress.

Ciao, Marco 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Z320

[Z320]

7 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

You can make a sort of  ‘quick’ rack with original items.   You need a pinion from a very early Herald with the solid mounted rack like an early TR4, and fit it in your TR rack.   It has one less tooth than the standard TR item.   It is what Lotus used to specify and is covered in Costin and Phipps book on chassis design and build.   Good section in there about the ratio of readily available racks at the time of writing.   You will also need a TARDIS to go swooping back in time to get a steady supply of the pinion etc. if you want to create your own.

Sorry, for a question:

a gear (or pinion) with 1 less tooth has a smaller diameter.

How does this fit without play an existing gearbox, made for a bigger sprocket without changing the distance.

Ciao, Marco

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, Z320 said:

Sorry, for a question:

a gear (or pinion) with 1 less tooth has a smaller diameter.

How does this fit without play an existing gearbox, made for a bigger sprocket without changing the distance.

Ciao, Marco

Sorry chaps.

My mistake.  The gear is one tooth the other way.

The design of the pinion housing permits the rack to move in or out of mesh with the pinion by the use of an adjustable half cup.

Peter W

[Z320]

Browsing the web for photos about "half cup" confuses me,

I've never seen something like this on my TR....

Edited August 17, 2022 by Z320

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

17 minutes ago, Z320 said:

Browsing the web for photos about "half cup" confuses me,

I've never seen something like this on my TR....

Item 38 here

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/steering-suspension/steering/steering-tr5-6-1967-76.html

[astontr6]

10 hours ago, RobH said:

To be fair I suppose the poor design isn't down to Moss or the other aftermarket suppliers, it's down to Triumph who made the gash fixing arrangement in the first place.  All other motor manufacturers seem to have done it the right way so the aftermarket racks are constructed to suit those cars (given that they are probably not made exclusively for TRs). 

A new rack would probably cost rather more if it was made specially strengthened for a TR so would people pay for it?  

There did ought to be much more visibility of the issue though and if new strengthened racks cannot be sourced the available ones should only be sold with the appropriate mounting safety measures. 

 

 

Hi Rob!

The original BL ones were made by a company called Cam Gears for BL and others in the British Motor car Industry. But they are long gone!

Bruce.

[roy53]

11 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Also available from Moss Europe

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/steering-rack-security-mount-kit-tr4.html

 

looks like your repro steering racks just went up by £137.00  or their insurance company might wriggle in the event of a claim 

I wonder how much the RTR kit will be……

 

 

Never knew of this part. Surprised we had not been aware of this part and possible failure. Moss being aware is annoying.

Wonder what the holding part is made from ?

Why is it not included in the uprated alloy rack clamps as standard or a warning included in the pack.

Annoyed Roy

 

Pleased to have highlighted this.

 

Revington have said that i purchased it to long ago .

[astontr6]

12 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Triumph used the rack mounting system of clamping the tube on virtually all their cars with manual steering racks from 1960 onwards to the late 1970’s.   MG adopted the same rack and tube clamping arrangement on the Midget from the early 1970’s.   Now there is a car brand that would have balked if the design was dubious.  That is a lot of factory built cars with the same rack mounting arrangement.  Had it been a questionable or dangerous construction the car maker would have been toast.  Triumph was not and is a brand retained by BMW along with Standard and Riley.   So a factory fitted safety critical item seems not to have failed in the way these reproduction ones have.  
The original maker clearly understood how to retain the steel tube in the alloy pressure die cast pinion housing.  Probably by die casting onto the steel tube.  Not a cheap push together process?

Let us not forget that low volume constructors like Lotus also used the Triumph design rack, albeit with a reduced length rack bar.

I think the original steering supplier was Alford and Alder. Long gone now.  Check Graces Guide.

It was Cam Gears long gone as we made all their packing shims and not Alford and Alder. Adwest supplied the PAS racks, we supplied them too!

Bruce.

[nickw71]

On 8/15/2022 at 1:20 PM, astontr6 said:

Hi Stuart!

I have spoken to the local Jaguar Group leader across the road from me. They use a company in Birmingham called 'Kiley Clinton Engineering Ltd: They will recon or remake any type of Jaguar steering rack and they even make new rack bars if required. I asked them for a general quote for a TR6 which they referred to as one of the simple ones £150 + vat, provided it does not need any major new parts remade. I shall be sending my old OEM rack to them for refurb.

Bruce

Just to let you guys know that I had my OEM rack refurbished by Kiley Clinton Engineering last year. They were great to deal with, turned the rack around in a fortnight and it came back beautifully finished and feeling good. It took a few hundred miles to loosen up but after that it's been perfect. Nick 

[astontr6]

13 hours ago, PodOne said:

Hi Rob

Personally if was in the market of selling a replacement rack with a known design issue even if the issue was a long standing one from Triumph I wouldn't have it on my conscience.  I would rather sell at a better design at a higher price and me pay the extra but I know many others would choose not to. Add on the cost of the retrograde kit to the rack it would likely be no more expensive?

So from what I understand am I correct in assuming even a reconditioned OEM Triumph rack has the same potential to fail as above? If so there's no alternative than to fit the extra hardware and hope it stays put!

Andy 

Pete got a reply before I finished! So it would seem the OEM racks reassuringly don't see this failure despite the design. I'll have to dig out the old one.

I would suspect that the OEM ones have a radial stop swaged into the tube so that it cannot pull out?? and used as a location when placed in the injection die prior to injection.

Bruce.

[Z320]

Hi,

I tried a lot to refurbish my old steering rack, and this is the most desirable.

But I failed because of two reasons and fitted annoyed a new one.

1st:

The "half cup" sliding on the toothed bar is "soft metal", but grinds the toothed steering bar down from on top.

In the center most material was grinded off, more and more less to the left and right side.

When I shimed according to the workshop maunal for minimum play - I was not able to steer anymore!

And when I shimed to the right and left side end - I had maximum play when I drove staight ahead!

2nd:

The toothed bar has no offset to the threaded end on the passenger side.

Getting the threaded end through the bronze bush - I had play on the blank steering bar.

 

This is why I fitted a new one, painted silver from Bastuck (Germany), made at Turkije (?) and was pleased from the first moment.

It has an offset and smaller thread on both sides of the steering bar and this is why it fits tight through the bronze bush.

But with the smaller thread the tie rod can only be angled less. So with the car jacked on the front the wheels pulled on the steering rack.

Btw this can also be the case with the steering rack lifted on aluminium brackets!

I modyfied the shock absorber brackes (also because of another reason).

This is all a what we call at Germany "tail of a rat".

Ciao, Marco

Edited August 18, 2022 by Z320

[Z320]

Anything wrong with my post?

[roy53]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:58 PM, RobH said:

To be fair I suppose the poor design isn't down to Moss or the other aftermarket suppliers, it's down to Triumph who made the gash fixing arrangement in the first place.  All other motor manufacturers seem to have done it the right way so the aftermarket racks are constructed to suit those cars (given that they are probably not made exclusively for TRs). 

A new rack would probably cost rather more if it was made specially strengthened for a TR so would people pay for it?  

There did ought to be much more visibility of the issue though and if new strengthened racks cannot be sourced the available ones should only be sold with the appropriate mounting safety measures. 

 

 

agree

quotes of £1250 for a new design one

[roy53]

On 8/16/2022 at 11:28 PM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Triumph used the rack mounting system of clamping the tube on virtually all their cars with manual steering racks from 1960 onwards to the late 1970’s.   MG adopted the same rack and tube clamping arrangement on the Midget from the early 1970’s.   Now there is a car brand that would have balked if the design was dubious.  That is a lot of factory built cars with the same rack mounting arrangement.  Had it been a questionable or dangerous construction the car maker would have been toast.  Triumph was not and is a brand retained by BMW along with Standard and Riley.   So a factory fitted safety critical item seems not to have failed in the way these reproduction ones have.  
The original maker clearly understood how to retain the steel tube in the alloy pressure die cast pinion housing.  Probably by die casting onto the steel tube.  Not a cheap push together process?

Let us not forget that low volume constructors like Lotus also used the Triumph design rack, albeit with a reduced length rack bar.

I think the original steering supplier was Alford and Alder. Long gone now.  Check Graces Guide.

i found that Ginetta use this rack but with a safety feature added.  I cannot at the moment cannot find out what.

Roy

[Dave McDonald]

I believe I bought my quick rack for the race TR6 from Rimmers and seem to remember it coming with a warning " Not Suitable For Competition Use"

See photo of the simple mod I made, ignoring the advice. A U bolt type exhaust clamp around the pinion housing with 2 short steel straps connecting that clamp to the bolts that hold the steering tube in the alloy clamps to the chassis mounts. That's worked successfully for many many years. Looks slightly agricultural but it's functional and gives me the confidence that this one won't part again like the previous one did.

Dave McD

[Ralph Whitaker]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:55 AM, roy53 said:

photo's  quick rack from revington

If you look at the pictures you can see a dimple in the pinion housing next to the mounting flange. I am fairly sure that in the original racks this was where a steel pin located in a hole on the steel tube to form a mechanical fix.  Has anyone had the same failure on an original rack?

Ralph

[roy53]

2 hours ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

If you look at the pictures you can see a dimple in the pinion housing next to the mounting flange. I am fairly sure that in the original racks this was where a steel pin located in a hole on the steel tube to form a mechanical fix.  Has anyone had the same failure on an original rack?

Ralph

no sign of this on the tube though

[Ralph Whitaker]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:36 AM, roy53 said:

no sign of this on the tube though

Exactly my point, these aftermarket racks seem to be missing this.

Ralph

[roy53]

Have been contacted by several members who have had failures on competition cars. Dave McD photo shows how he got over it and looks strong.

Do any on here recognise the rack clamps he has ?    cannot find them anywhere and Dave cannot remember where they came from.

Need to locate an old escort rack to see if it can be fitted as there clamping is spot on. 

Roy

[Z320]

Easy