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Any problems with 10% Ethanol ?


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Bought some Esso Super unleaded yesterday at £1.95.9 a litre.  I have always used it since getting the TR on the road last year, mainly because of the zero ethanol in our area ( I think).

I am also using Castrol valvemaster additive as I have not had the valve seats replaced, but this now contains an ethanol stabiliser to protect against corrosion and acid formation in the fuel system, and it says is suitable for use with 10% ethanol.

With normal unleaded now being 20p a litre cheaper I was thinking of making the change and saving £10 per tank full, but wondered if others have noticed any problems. I was thinking mainly of vapourisation when hot in traffic and pinking etc.

When we had the shortages last year I had to top up with normal unleaded, but still had half a tank of super and didn`t notice anything, so maybe thats another answer, mix normal and super 50/50 and end up with 5% mix.

Ralph

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Ralph,

A bigger problem is the effect of alcohol on rubber components.  There have been several reports of fuel fires in classics when their rubber fuel lines have given way.    Modern alcohol resistant hose should replace any already in place.

And no need to add Valvemaster in use.    The Americans had leadless fuel ten years before we did and cannot understand our obsession with the possibility of valve recession, as they never had any.   Except if you regrind  the valves and seats, do long, high speed motorway trips or competition, you need not worry.

Storage may be a different story, as the alcohol  is hygroscopic, so use your TR more!     For winter storage, just one tankfull of treated fuel, of even a smaller amount in the dregs of an near empty tank will save you money!

John

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1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

Ralph,

A bigger problem is the effect of alcohol on rubber components.  There have been several reports of fuel fires in classics when their rubber fuel lines have given way.    Modern alcohol resistant hose should replace any already in place.

And no need to add Valvemaster in use.    The Americans had leadless fuel ten years before we did and cannot understand our obsession with the possibility of valve recession, as they never had any.   Except if you regrind  the valves and seats, do long, high speed motorway trips or competition, you need not worry.

Storage may be a different story, as the alcohol  is hygroscopic, so use your TR more!     For winter storage, just one tankfull of treated fuel, of even a smaller amount in the dregs of an near empty tank will save you money!

John

My car was put together during lockdown with all new pipes and hoses using ethanol proof rubber hoses, so not worried about that. The cylinder head had re-cut seats and valves, so no lead "memory", hence the use of the additive. Works out at 4p per litre of fuel, so on its own not too bad a price to pay.

My main concern was the ethanol is more volatile, and despite having had the engine in bits, so I know there is no crud lodged in the block, and a new core in the radiator eliminating the starting handle hole, and reducing the flow through the by-pass, I still suffer from the under bonnet temperature rising when in traffic jams. After a while this causes the idle speed to start dropping, which I can only assume is due to either the inlet air temp rising, or the fuel in the pipes or floatbowls beginning to evapourate. I have fitted an overide switch in the electric fan circuit, and turning that on when in traffic does help.  Just didn`t want to make the situation worse by using 10% and was looking for others that were using it and for some feed back.

Thanks, Ralph

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I have just written up my initial report for TRA: using E10 in a fairly standard TR3.  Suffice to say the biggest issue (for a car with probably compatible hoses and seals) is poor mpg. I am somewhat mystified as to why the unleaded petrol compatibility and valve seat resession subject has resurfaced? 

As a matter of fact now, my TR engine temperature does not rise when using E10. Well, it might but any change is within the cooling system's capability.

Assume every one is using objurating thermostats.

I have stopped the trial soley because E10 is working out too expensive.

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I have just replaced the Stromberg carburettor floats in the 4A because they were beginning to blister and were softening. This is after E5 use since it was introduced in about 2008. The new floats are E10 resistant 'stay up' floats. I have also replaced all the hoses and gaskets etc and the O rings in the carbs. I would strongly recommend that anyone with carbs check their floats even with E5 use and change them to E10 resistant. I was surprised to discover that E5 had started to cause disintegration of the floats even though that was over a period of about 14 years. Also change your fuel hoses for either R9 (for injection) or R14 for low pressure systems. R6 hose is ethanol resistant but more permeable to petrol vapour.

As for E10 vs E5 mpg etc, I use E10 in a new Mini and a 1998 Ford Fiesta with no problems. Checking the mpg in the Mini, I really don't think that E10 is significantly worse than E5 for mpg based on trials I have been doing in everyday use. Maintaining correct tyre pressures and the style of driving seem to affect mpg more than the fuel in that car. I get better mpg on longer runs than I do around town which is not surprising. I have still to change from E5 to E10 fuel in the TR but I don't anticipate any major issues now that it should be E10 resistant. We shall see!

Keith

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Hmm, not the first report of degrading plastic floats, if a Nylon derrivative then I guess this is not unpredicted. Luckily, I have SUs with soldered brass BUT as you will read, some strange "stuff" in the bottom of the float chambers. ps.. Our (BMW) Mini Cooper does seem to also have lower mpg - wifey was putting E10 in but we have swapped back to E5 so awaiting an improvement....

SAE J30 R6 is gasoline resistant and seems to be OK on low doses of ethanol, some say up to E20. Note that there are two hose spec. 'R14's ...SAE J30 R14 and SAE100 R14 - not the same.

Also seem to hear more reports of some after-market in-line fuel filters blocking up with orange/brown stuff. With no evidence what so ever(!) I wonder if this is just incompatible filter/plastic/glue problems in the filter? I have never fitted in-line fliters to the TR in 45 years of owning it, so never had one fail!

MJ

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3 hours ago, mikej said:

I have just written up my initial report for TRA: using E10 in a fairly standard TR3.  Suffice to say the biggest issue (for a car with probably compatible hoses and seals) is poor mpg. I am somewhat mystified as to why the unleaded petrol compatibility and valve seat resession subject has resurfaced? 

As a matter of fact now, my TR engine temperature does not rise when using E10. Well, it might but any change is within the cooling system's capability.

Assume every one is using objurating thermostats.

I have stopped the trial soley because E10 is working out too expensive.

I was purely interested if owners had any problems with fuel vaporization. I wasn`t thinking it would make the engine run hotter. Not bothered in the least about valve seat recession or damaged hoses as explained before. I am told that lead (ie solder) is one of the metals that can be affected by ethanol, so soldered brass floats might not be impervious.

I am curious as to what you use now that you say E10 is too expensive as I thought only the Super brands had less and are all dearer, that being the very reason I asked the question in the first place as thinking of using E10 because it works out at a tenner a tankful cheaper.

Anyway, I look forward to reading your report, and thank you for your efforts on our behalf.

Ralph

 

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13 minutes ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

I was purely interested if owners had any problems with fuel vaporization. I wasn`t thinking it would make the engine run hotter. Not bothered in the least about valve seat recession or damaged hoses as explained before. I am told that lead (ie solder) is one of the metals that can be affected by ethanol, so soldered brass floats might not be impervious.

I am curious as to what you use now that you say E10 is too expensive as I thought only the Super brands had less and are all dearer, that being the very reason I asked the question in the first place as thinking of using E10 because it works out at a tenner a tankful cheaper.

Anyway, I look forward to reading your report, and thank you for your efforts on our behalf.

Ralph

 

He must mean E5 is more expensive! Better running for me with the higher octane & having the lower ethanol. Price worth paying I think!

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Hi Ralph

We've recently returned from doing the HERO London to Lisbon rally in our 4, just over 4000miles garage door to garage door. Several times when filled up we found that 95 and 98 were were both E10 so had no option for E5. Despite outside temperatures being in close to 30C on several days and the car being worked hard I can say I never suffered from fuel evaporation. 

Dave

 

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Only more expensive because I was using more to cover the same distances. I think I am a member of the "my car runs better on higher octane" club but I can't quantify it. Having just been out in TFJ with a fresh tank of E5 I can't honestly say it feels any better but then I have a fairly standard engine.  Encouraging report from DaveB66.

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On 6/4/2022 at 11:05 PM, DaveB66 said:

Hi Ralph

We've recently returned from doing the HERO London to Lisbon rally in our 4, just over 4000miles garage door to garage door. Several times when filled up we found that 95 and 98 were were both E10 so had no option for E5. Despite outside temperatures being in close to 30C on several days and the car being worked hard I can say I never suffered from fuel evaporation. 

Dave

 

Thanks for that Dave, sounds encouraging. We are never likely to see temps like that over here, so I think I will try a couple of tanks of E10 and see if I notice any difference.

Ralph

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15 hours ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

We are never likely to see temps like that over here, so I think I will try a couple of tanks of E10 and see if I notice any difference.

Ralph

'Close to 30C' was the original posters comment Ralph, I came back from south coast to Essex on the M25 last summer travelling in 28C air temp but when in stationary heavy traffic this exceeded 30C around the car from the road surface.

Bob

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I may be wrong but isn't ethanol less calorific than petrol. So by inference E10 is less calorific than E5 which could explain reduced fuel economy and power.

The biggest concern would be the impact of the ethanol on componenets not designd to cope with it.  Fuel pipes and some seals which are likely to be harmed more readily in 10% ethanol than 5%.

A lot of the 98 octane fuel seems to still be E5 so may explain why some of us find our cars run better on it. My 6 certainly does but in the past I didn't notice any benefit 95 & 98 in exactly the same state of tune.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/4/2022 at 1:04 PM, mikej said:

I have just written up my initial report for TRA: using E10 in a fairly standard TR3.  Suffice to say the biggest issue (for a car with probably compatible hoses and seals) is poor mpg. I am somewhat mystified as to why the unleaded petrol compatibility and valve seat resession subject has resurfaced? 

As a matter of fact now, my TR engine temperature does not rise when using E10. Well, it might but any change is within the cooling system's capability.

Assume every one is using objurating thermostats.

I have stopped the trial soley because E10 is working out too expensive.

Essential all fuels that contain biofuel have  a reduction in energy value when  compared with 100% mineral hydrocarbon . With FAME its between 10% and 20%  with ethanol  its around 5-10%  however I know of instances where refineries have treated the fuel at higher than 10% Ethenol .Ocne the Ethanol approach's the end of its storage stability  the Refinery Traders will  disclose the higher treat rate for  price reduction . The ide is that the concentration can be blended back or the treat rate disclosed down the supply chain  . However disclosure is not often adhered to !  

regards

Steve

Edited by Nobbysr
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It does make any comparison of performance difficult if we cannot know what % of ethanol is in the fuel we buy. It may also exacerbate the failure rate of some elastomeric seals as they swell-shrink-swell with different concentrations. This was a noted issue on lip seals in the past.

Mike J

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Just for Info

This thread has made me more aware of the potential problems with E10 fuel, so as I start to gather parts and begin to assemble I am asking if parts are E10  compatible

So trying to get the fuel pipe fron fuel tap to pump 1955 TR2 I contacted Moss regarding their listing

Triumph TR2 TR3 TR3A Hose Tap to pump union & nuts S/Steel Braided Mocal 104842S

and their reply was

"I am sorry. But I have no information to say that these are E10 compliant."

In addition these have the 90deg bend at one end which is not required.

Chris

 

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We've been using E10 throughout the US for years now, and in my area I can't even buy E0 fuel due to air quality regulations.  In a motor vehicle made within the last 25 years or so -- no issues.  In a TR that's had rubber in the fuel system replaced with ethanol-compatible grades -- no issues.  

I drove about a thousand miles using ethanol free in the US southwest a year or so ago (where that fuel grade was available) and I saw no change in economy over about 4000 miles total comparing E10/15 to E0, so even the theoretical heat capacity differences can't be seen.

Where ethanol-free fuel has made a difference is in my small engine yard equipment.  Mower, edger/trimmer, etc.  For those I fill my cans when I'm in an area that sells ethanol free.  My equipment overwinters and starts in the springtime lots better if it runs with "pure gas" (a common term in American English.)

 

PS:  Those results are with ambient temperatures ranging from -15C to +38C.

Edited by Don H.
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27 minutes ago, Don H. said:

 

Where ethanol-free fuel has made a difference is in my small engine yard equipment.  Mower, edger/trimmer, etc.  For those I fill my cans when I'm in an area that sells ethanol free.  My equipment overwinters and starts in the springtime lots better if it runs with "pure gas" (a common term in American English.)

 

 

Don

I have found that a good dose of carburettor cleaner down the intake solves spring time starting issues.

My assumption is that the very small jets and breather holes in garden machine engines are easily clogged with varnishes etc when the ethanol evaporates and the cleaner removes this crud.

George 

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48 minutes ago, harlequin said:

Don

I have found that a good dose of carburettor cleaner down the intake solves spring time starting issues.

My assumption is that the very small jets and breather holes in garden machine engines are easily clogged with varnishes etc when the ethanol evaporates and the cleaner removes this crud.

George 

I've tried carb cleaner, and it can indeed help.  I've had the best results by never getting into varnishing problems.  Ethanol-free, use of a fuel stabilizer (I'm currently using one over here called Seafoam), and completely draining carb (and often tank) at the end of the season.  That leads to a one- or two-pull start in the springtime.

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Hi Don

Ethanol free fuel is a thing of the past where I live so its fortunate that there an easy work around, that is untill carb cleaner is banned as well!

I have heard good things about Seafoam but again I don't think its available over here.

George 

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In the US, one can often find ethanol-free petrol (at a big premium, alas) where it's sold for boats.  Those guys recognize leaving fuel in tanks for extended periods is better without ethanol.  So try a local marina.

Aviation fuel is another option, but that's kind of a crazy excess and often brings other issues (like tetraethyl lead) in some regions.

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Like "Marvel Mystery Oil" , in America, "Seafoam" appears to be better than bread presented in individual slices. For any, absolutely any, engine problem.   Bit like WD40.

It is more usual that remedies that are presented as cure-all nostrums are the reverse, the province of know-nothing quacks!

John

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