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TR4a Rear Wheel Bearing


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58 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

As stated previously in the thread

...Just a point which many TR owners will follow, the releasing of the rear shock absorbers to gain under TR working space is common, but the CV driveshafts are engineered to operate within the trailing arm controlled droop, Some years back there were a few TRs with CVs fitted that suffered damage to them with unrestrained droop on the trailing arms it overextending the CV driveshafts beyond their operating range.

When in service if you again need the space to work underneath it's good practice to avoid over extending the CV driveshafts and causing problems, so undoing the diff flange end of the driveshaft and wiggling the flange off the studs allows you even more space before you undo the rear shock absorber and the trailing arm goes into full droop.

The undoing of the 4 nuts connecting the CV driveshaft and inner flange to the diff flange allows the entire driveshaft to be eased off the studs whilst remaining complete and attached to the wheel hubs. Then if the shock absorbers are removed for gaining extra space with the trailing arm going into full unrestrained droop beyond the normal operating range of the CV shafts the entire shaft can deflect without overextending and causing damage. After other work is completed just jacking up the trailing arm and refitting the shock absorber then allows the inner CV drive shaft flange to be represented to the diff and the studs reconnected with nuts. ...Good practice. 

Mick Richards

Just to add to what Mick has said, you can leave the drop link from the shock absorber connected to the trailing arm. The only reason you need to remove the two securing bolts ( standard dampers) is to push it aside enough to feed the drive shaft through  ( in the case of the split CV shafts). 

But as Mick has pointed out it’s important to support the trailing arm with a jack throughout fitting so that the arm doesn’t hang on its own weight and droop. 

The last time I fitted a new CV joint ( not on these shafts) there is only a wire circular spring clip on the shaft to hold the CV joint in place ( purely whilst in service to prevent it dropping off. It does not have any other function). If pulled over the spring clip it could disengage from the shaft, but with the boot in place it may not be visibly evident, hence Mick’s comment not to allow undue extension in any component.

Kevin

Edited by boxofbits
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2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

As stated previously in the thread

...Just a point which many TR owners will follow, the releasing of the rear shock absorbers to gain under TR working space is common, but the CV driveshafts are engineered to operate within the trailing arm controlled droop, Some years back there were a few TRs with CVs fitted that suffered damage to them with unrestrained droop on the trailing arms it overextending the CV driveshafts beyond their operating range.

When in service if you again need the space to work underneath it's good practice to avoid over extending the CV driveshafts and causing problems, so undoing the diff flange end of the driveshaft and wiggling the flange off the studs allows you even more space before you undo the rear shock absorber and the trailing arm goes into full droop.

The undoing of the 4 nuts connecting the CV driveshaft and inner flange to the diff flange allows the entire driveshaft to be eased off the studs whilst remaining complete and attached to the wheel hubs. Then if the shock absorbers are removed for gaining extra space with the trailing arm going into full unrestrained droop beyond the normal operating range of the CV shafts the entire shaft can deflect without overextending and causing damage. After other work is completed just jacking up the trailing arm and refitting the shock absorber then allows the inner CV drive shaft flange to be represented to the diff and the studs reconnected with nuts. ...Good practice. 

Mick Richards

That will teach me to read a thread a couple of weeks ago, then come back to it today and just read the last few posts...  :(

Incidentally, I called Racetorations about a week or so ago, about the Quaife hubs, and the guy there said I would have to take metal off the Diaameter of the end flange of my driveshaft to match their hub flange. Seemed odd to me, but was he right? Just for interest sake really, i'm pretty much decided on the CV units.

 

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Sorry don’t know about the Quaife hubs, but it sounds like it’s a generic part and the Triumph flange is slightly bigger and needs reducing to suit, probably ok to do.

Mick Richards

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/20/2022 at 10:35 AM, stuart said:

Or fit these hubs with new Proptech shafts and never have to worry again. https://www.vessey-classic-car-services.co.uk/triumph-tr-rear-hubs.htm

Im not a big fan of CV shafts.

Stuart.

What are the downsides of CV shafts Stuart? I am a bit undecided whether to go with UJ or CV along with uprated new hubs probably from Classic Driving Developments.

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We had a fitting problem with the CV shafts as supplied by CDD as the hubs are too thick and hold the brake drums out also if you need to change any of the suspension components then you need to unbolt them from the diff to avoid over stressing them also there have been quality issues with some. 

Stuart

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On 5/2/2022 at 2:00 PM, RogerH said:

Hi Folks,

this is my opinion.

 The standard hub is/was perfectly adequate when first fitted.  Probably good for a life of 30 years or so with normal driving.

I'm sure there were premature failures.

However as each year now passes one hears of another hub failing. - so clearly age, mileage and driving conditions have a bearing.

If you were to replace only the stub ale then you would reset the counter for seeing the wheel pass you by. Do the bearings at the same time.

Clearly there are better designs, as Stuart has pointed out, and may put your mind at rest.

 

I am happy with the design of the original and accept its long term short comings. I think mine wil see me out.

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

Did you have any problems with the hub thickness that has been mentioned? Are these Moss units the same as the items from Classic Driving Developments do you think? So worried about all of this!

 

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1 hour ago, stuart said:

We had a fitting problem with the CV shafts as supplied by CDD as the hubs are too thick and hold the brake drums out also if you need to change any of the suspension components then you need to unbolt them from the diff to avoid over stressing them also there have been quality issues with some. 

Stuart

Sounds like the Quaife/Vessey items from Racetorations also give a problem according to a previous posting from johnwill?

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1 hour ago, monty said:

Hi Roger,

Did you have any problems with the hub thickness that has been mentioned? Are these Moss units the same as the items from Classic Driving Developments do you think? So worried about all of this!

 

The Moss hubs are not the same as the CDD items.

People are rubbishing the standard hubs because they have outlived their life. A new hub resets the start date in my mind.

The hubs fit as original.   They are showing as on back order at the moment.

Roger

 

 

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1 hour ago, monty said:

Sounds like the Quaife/Vessey items from Racetorations also give a problem according to a previous posting from johnwill?

Ive fitted them without problems

Stuart

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27 minutes ago, RogerH said:

The Moss hubs are not the same as the CDD items.

People are rubbishing the standard hubs because they have outlived their life. A new hub resets the start date in my mind.

The hubs fit as original.   They are showing as on back order at the moment.

Roger

 

 

Thanks Roger. This is all proving to be a worry & a minefield! I have only recently read of these hub problems & I just want to be safe, obtain a quality item that I can get fitted quickly without any other problems such as poor fitting, grinding down or altering existing parts & ongoing hassle. I need to enjoy this car after the past 2 years of little use! One has to wonder just how safe classic cars actually are after so long out of production. People race, rally & track day these cars of ours yet little seems to come to light regarding serious problems (until now!) & I just wonder how many, of all makes, are out there being dangerous. 

 

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5 minutes ago, stuart said:

Ive fitted them without problems

Stuart

Yes, but people are also saying they have fitted CDD items without problems. Minefield springs to mind!

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Hi Monty,

calm down.   The original TRiumph hub has a weak point - the stub axle.  Its' weakness appears after 30 or 40 years of 'normal' driving.

So, in theory, if the stub axle were to be changed every 30 years all would be well.

None of the 'new' or modified parts have gotten to 30+ years old so you do not know what their life may hold.

I appreciate that the Stag has had a few  very odd failures

 

If it were me (and I have done) I would fit a pair of Moss new hubs.   I know their limitations. 

 

Roger

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6 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Monty,

calm down.   The original TRiumph hub has a weak point - the stub axle.  Its' weakness appears after 30 or 40 years of 'normal' driving.

So, in theory, if the stub axle were to be changed every 30 years all would be well.

None of the 'new' or modified parts have gotten to 30+ years old so you do not know what their life may hold.

I appreciate that the Stag has had a few  very odd failures

 

If it were me (and I have done) I would fit a pair of Moss new hubs.   I know their limitations. 

 

Roger

Just new hubs rather than new driveshafts of either CV or UJ variety?

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31 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Monty,

calm down.   The original TRiumph hub has a weak point - the stub axle.  Its' weakness appears after 30 or 40 years of 'normal' driving.

So, in theory, if the stub axle were to be changed every 30 years all would be well.

None of the 'new' or modified parts have gotten to 30+ years old so you do not know what their life may hold.

I appreciate that the Stag has had a few  very odd failures

 

If it were me (and I have done) I would fit a pair of Moss new hubs.   I know their limitations. 

 

Roger

You might wish to check them Roger.

These were new standard Moss hubs that had done a couple of hundred miles and the hub fell apart at Malven last year and the hub nut unwound itself.
Fortunately at low speed in the campsite.

20210813_153721.jpg

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3 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Monty,

calm down.   The original TRiumph hub has a weak point - the stub axle.  Its' weakness appears after 30 or 40 years of 'normal' driving.

So, in theory, if the stub axle were to be changed every 30 years all would be well.

None of the 'new' or modified parts have gotten to 30+ years old so you do not know what their life may hold.

I appreciate that the Stag has had a few  very odd failures

 

If it were me (and I have done) I would fit a pair of Moss new hubs.   I know their limitations. 

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

I agree that the hubs after 35-40 years have reached their material "terminal" strength, and I think that we have a conjoined problem in the area.

There are more reports on the IRS cars of squeaking from the rear for a time and then a shear failure either from the hub or from the stub axle causing wheel loss. Without expertise in the area (unlike yourselves and others) my thinking is that if either the hub or stub axle starts to exhibit excess flexing caused by micro cracking or cracking it often impacts upon the other component, causing an increase in stress which then leads to a fracture and wheel loss from whichever component failure occurs. Because of the terminal damage caused in the area it's likely impossible to pin down which component became the trigger, which doesn't matter much because they both need changing, arriving as they are at the ends of their respective lives. 

We are fortunate in that we have options, apart from the new hubs from Moss (I accept the above failure is probably an odd failure) and the CDD original problems which appear now not to be the case, we also have another 2 or 3 suppliers of hubs and driveshaft functions. The driveshafts I feel are not so much of a safety item, apart from the likely bodywork damage of a flailing unrestrained driveshaft the wheels should still remain attached to the car. So driveshafts of your choice whether original, or Rilsan coated or CV variety or the other options fitted to new hubs, either from Moss, or the CDD hubs which I understand are manufactured to have play removed by shimming in situ obviating the high stresses inherent in the original design hubs, and of course the Quaiffe Vessey hubs also will all do the job. 

The important decision is...to change the stub axle and hubs, whichever of the options picked above it's likely that another lifetime will pass before problems come to the fore.

Mick Richards

   

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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As i was facing some vibrations at around 65mph (despite new tires and balanced wheels) i started investigating how to change wheel bearing front and rear.  After reading this post i decided to change the rear hubs and shafts for upgraded CV ones. I believe there are the CDD ones supplied by Rimmer.  Also my mechanic changed the front wheel bearings.  He did not report any issue about installation, and he did install already those CV shafts and hubs to 5 cars prior to mine, all 5 customers still happy.

Aside from any safety issue (my primary reason), i have to say this like driving another car.  I don't know how bad my shafts and hubs were, but now everything is so smooth with no lag and no vibration.  What a difference !

cheers,

 

Laurent

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FWIW having read this and several other related threads I investigated both the Moss and TR Shop hubs, as Roger stated Moss are out of stock and couldn't provide a re-order date. I purchased a pair of Bastuck rear hubs from TR Shop (not the same as the Moss ones) which should be fine. I already have the uprated Proptech driveshafts so I'm hoping this will provide 30+ years of trouble free motoring :) 

David

 

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I have a noise from the rear corner on my own TR4A, on what is a quite new hub with only a few hundred miles on it.  The source has not yet been fully investigated but a hub problem is a possibility.   It's a rotational noise when moving under load (and changes on left or right hand turns) but not when the back wheel is jacked up.     I did some research on hubs and their suppliers before it was replaced and have just updated my list based upon this thread in case it's of any help to others.

 

TR GB currently has Part Number: TKC853/CV – ‘pair of half shafts with constant velocity joints and uprated rear hub bearings’  currently at £925.00 Exc. Vat.   They also sell a reconditioned hub but this is about new replacement hubs.

 

Moss Europe also shows a reconditioned hub on their web site but also sell new hub units under part number: 402347 at £260.40 each but currently have none in stock and on back order.  I phoned them last week and was told that the person making them was on holiday and they hope to begin making them again soon.    I telephoned the London branch and was told they’ve stopped reconditioning them and now only sell new, made in house units.    Moss also sells a pair of CV Joint, driveshaft & hub under part number: TKC853CV for £1,109.20 

 

Revington TR make their own uprated hubs under part number 137496-1  at £466.16 plus VAT each.

 

Classic Driving Developments  make their own uprated hubs for £380 each plus VAT

 

Bastuck also sells a replacement hub under their part number D100TR6 for 360,47 Euros.

 

Goodparts in America sells their own uprated CV jointed Axle/Hub Assembly at $1,198 (wire wheel version but options there) but shipping may be expensive.

 

The Dennis Vessey & Co ones with Quaife bearings suggested in the forum post had the rights sold to Racestorations  under part number AXL104-WW and for wire wheel use has a cost of £665 each plus VAT.

 

TD Fitchett recondition hubs under part number TKC897R  for £250

 

Myself, if I need a new hub will probably be going for a new one from Moss.  I already have uprated Revington drive shafts under part number RTR1371    That is, unless someone can suggest a better hub in my circumstance, with my limited budget.  I'd love the full package but can't afford such expense at present.

 

Paul  

Edited by PaulAnderson
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FWIW I think the CDD and Revington hubs are one and the same.

Stuart.

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53 minutes ago, stuart said:

FWIW I think the CDD and Revington hubs are one and the same.

Stuart.

Looking at the two individual web page descriptions, it looks very much like it.   

I forgot to add above, the failure of a new Moss hub on that TR6 is quite concerning as that was my item of choice if I need a new one.   

Paul  

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