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TR4a Rear Wheel Bearing


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41 minutes ago, boxofbits said:

I’ll measure both shafts today to make sure on that Stuart. The drums didn’t bind on the shoes when back and have a gap between the back plate, but I’ll double check. They did offer me wheel spacers which I declined, but that was due to the longer stud length. 
 

Kevin

Ive had fitting problems with them where there was too big a gap between the back plate and the drum to the extent you could see the lining, The hub flange was too thick.

Stuart.

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1 hour ago, stuart said:

Ive had fitting problems with them where there was too big a gap between the back plate and the drum to the extent you could see the lining, The hub flange was too thick.

Stuart.

I’ve measured and it’s the flange that’s 1/8” thicker than the original. The actual hub dimensions look okay. Having looked at the drum I’ve got about 1/8” + of unbraked area on the outside, so if that pulls back 1/8” it should be okay as the shoes are still within the drum- but closer. When the drum is installed there’s 1/2” from the backplate edge to the edge of that strengthening rib on the drum. 
 

It is closer to the outside of the drum so it’s possible a drum with a big wear ridge will jam. I usually file mine down when the the drums are off as a lot of it seems like flaky rust where it’s not used. I’ll still phone TRGB tomorrow to ask about it.

Out if interest what problems have you come across? ( sorry noticed you’ve already mentioned)
Kevin

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Edited by boxofbits
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Original fit on a 5, the wear ridge could catch out the unwary.

Stuart.

 

Marks TR5 039.jpg

Edited by stuart
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Kevin, a good step forward.

Just a point which many TR owners will follow, the releasing of the rear shock absorbers to gain under TR working space is common, but the CV driveshafts are engineered to operate within the trailing arm controlled droop, Some years back there were a few TRs with CVs fitted that suffered damage to them with unrestrained droop on the trailing arms it overextending the CV driveshafts beyond their operating range.

When in service if you again need the space to work underneath it's good practice to avoid over extending the CV driveshafts and causing problems, so undoing the diff flange end of the driveshaft and wiggling the flange off the studs allows you even more space before you undo the rear shock absorber and the trailing arm goes into full droop.

Mick Richards

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Hi Mick

Thanks for that. I did have a jack under the trailing arm when I took the two bolts out of the chassis. I used the jack to make the installation path as straight as possible. I know what you mean in that if the damper was disconnected it could drop too far and cause an excessive angle. Funnily enough the bumf that comes with it says only the N/S damper needs disconnecting but I can’t see you can get the other side in without doing that.

When I worked for a BMC/BL dealer all the front wheel drive cars, Mini/1100/1800 used the CV joint which I believe Alec Issigonis had developed originally for the 1959 Mini, so they were still quite new. They felt the standard UJ was not going to work well enough at acute angles. To be fair they worked quite well, but when worn there would a hell of a loud clonking noise on full lock. So we changed them quite frequently, but not as often as the boot covering it! The original boot was not that flexible and tore easily, but later corrugated boots lasted a lot longer. They rarely came apart. In fact I don’t remember one doing that. The shaft was only held in by a small expanding wire ring, so were easy to separate. I guess the modern day ones are similar.

Given the fact these shafts use OEM joints, and two per shaft, I don’t expect much trouble with them. The flat metal clips securing the boots are good quality and similar in fact to the original BMC boot clips.

I took the car out for a drive today, and it is definitely smoother across all rev ranges, and especially when pulling away. I got the impression a lot of the snatching in the drive train normally experienced was being damped out.

Thanks for all the info on this thread Mick.

Regards

Kevin

 

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On 4/20/2022 at 4:08 PM, stuart said:

Dennis Vessey is the only supplier I believe though I suspect Racetorations also supply them as they deal with Vesseys.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart,

Years ago when I worked in the OEM motor components industry, some of the senior managers had Triumph 2000s and some did very high mileages approaching 100K in under 3 years. This problem with broken rear hubs was known then!!! and that was in the 1970's!! We had a couple of 2000's become 3 wheelers then the 2000's went auction at 75K.

Bruce

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Having read all these comments and heard similar elsewhere, I'm going to change my original rear hub assemblies for new items. I had already fitted the uprated Proptech drive shafts, so I just need the hubs. I've been in contact with Alasdair at Classic Driving Development and his hubs are £440 + VAT ea, but I notice that Moss(260)/Rimmers(366) are quite a bit cheaper; I'm sure you pay for quality but does anyone have experience with the Moss/Rimmers items, are they ok?

Many thanks

David

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If youve already got the Proptech shafts then I would go for the Cosworth hubs as theyre reliable/bomb proof/new not repro. Available from Racetorations.https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/fast-road-race-rear-hub-assembly-tr4a-6/

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Hi all I have been reading this thread with great interest, and it now worries me that I have an intermittent squeak coming from the rear area.

I thought it was the exhaust but after thorough investigating I cannot identify where it is coming from.

If it is from the rear hubs I would not hesitate to renew the complete asy. with new shafts and hubs from Racetorations as suggested.

Question is it a straightforward job old unit out new unit in with no mods needed as I would like to attempt it myself .

The cv units from them at about £600 each seem a lot but what does £1200 quid buy nowadays? 3 nights in Bournemouth maybe.

 

Any advice most welcome Lee

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19 hours ago, Lee Dutton said:

Hi all I have been reading this thread with great interest, and it now worries me that I have an intermittent squeak coming from the rear area.

I thought it was the exhaust but after thorough investigating I cannot identify where it is coming from.

If it is from the rear hubs I would not hesitate to renew the complete asy. with new shafts and hubs from Racetorations as suggested.

Question is it a straightforward job old unit out new unit in with no mods needed as I would like to attempt it myself .

The cv units from them at about £600 each seem a lot but what does £1200 quid buy nowadays? 3 nights in Bournemouth maybe.

 

Any advice most welcome Lee

Lee - I have the Quaife version as linked in Stuart’s response.  They are really meaty units.  They were direct replacements for the originals.

Cheers

Dave

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On 4/29/2022 at 2:35 PM, qkingston said:

Having read all these comments and heard similar elsewhere, I'm going to change my original rear hub assemblies for new items. I had already fitted the uprated Proptech drive shafts, so I just need the hubs. I've been in contact with Alasdair at Classic Driving Development and his hubs are £440 + VAT ea, but I notice that Moss(260)/Rimmers(366) are quite a bit cheaper; I'm sure you pay for quality but does anyone have experience with the Moss/Rimmers items, are they ok?

Many thanks

David

Sorry, just to get back to the question, has anyone got any experience with the replacement Moss hubs? The CCD/Quaife ones look great, but significantly more expensive and I don't really need a 'competition' spec item

Many thanks 

David 

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45 minutes ago, qkingston said:

Sorry, just to get back to the question, has anyone got any experience with the replacement Moss hubs? The CCD/Quaife ones look great, but significantly more expensive and I don't really need a 'competition' spec item

Many thanks 

David 

David -  I'm pretty sure Roger Hogarth has used the Moss new ones, and rates them as perfectly adequate/good - I believe he has them on his car and does some pretty serious mileages so his experience will be very useful. I don't know if they are the same as the Rimmer ones though.

No doubt Roger will be along to confirm or otherwise

Cheers Rich

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2 hours ago, qkingston said:

Sorry, just to get back to the question, has anyone got any experience with the replacement Moss hubs? The CCD/Quaife ones look great, but significantly more expensive and I don't really need a 'competition' spec item

Many thanks 

David 

A lot cheaper than the repair bill when one falls off. Nothing to do with competition but all to do with safety.

Stuart.

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19 hours ago, Phil Read said:

As a matter of interest how many people have experience rear hub bearing failure in normal road conditions.

A fair few over the years, couldnt give you numbers but theres at least enough along with the advancing years to be aware of the problem.

Stuart.

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Hi Folks,

this is my opinion.

 The standard hub is/was perfectly adequate when first fitted.  Probably good for a life of 30 years or so with normal driving.

I'm sure there were premature failures.

However as each year now passes one hears of another hub failing. - so clearly age, mileage and driving conditions have a bearing.

If you were to replace only the stub ale then you would reset the counter for seeing the wheel pass you by. Do the bearings at the same time.

Clearly there are better designs, as Stuart has pointed out, and may put your mind at rest.

 

I am happy with the design of the original and accept its long term short comings. I think mine wil see me out.

 

Roger

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On 5/1/2022 at 4:49 PM, Phil Read said:

As a matter of interest how many people have experience rear hub bearing failure in normal road conditions.

Phil,

I'm not sure how many failures will be enough for you.

It's not the bearing failure that's a problem...it's the hub SPLITTING IN HALF (see the photos) and also the stub axle snapping in use.

Even If you read this thread (you'll see maybe half a dozen reported here), and I've posted 4 different IRS owners who have had the pleasure. As I've said before the TRs are the canary in the mineshaft, because of our pretensions of driving a sports car we use them harder than maybe the Stags (who have had their own numbers of failures despite their... possibly more restrained shall we say...car use ) and the big Triumph saloons (see the post on here regarding fleet replacements being brought forward from 100k to 75k to avoid wheel loss).

If you fancy doing the maths have a trawl through our TR forum pages (you'll find many threads and posts) and start logging the IRS cars with failures.  As experienced by quite a few if you have the hubs rebuilt with new bearings you'll quite likely have a reconditioner use a 20 ton press and a oxy torch to remove the hub off the taper on the stub axle and in the process start a crack which can propagate in use, ...and fail, ...and tuck under on a corner...and turn the car over...and possibly kill you and your passenger. We've already had TRs who became inverted...how lucky do you feel ?

These cars are very likely to already have had bearings replaced sometimes in their past life, probably 30 years ago when the car was a spritely 20 year old and the abuse suffered then has possibly already started a process that will lead to failure.  How long do you want these original highly stressed parts to last ?

Have a word with a design engineer from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Range Rover etc etc and ask if cars that they sell now will have hubs and stub axles that will be serviceable and safe in daily use... in 2070 ! with no guarantee that the car has been driven by a nun (wearing slippers) especially when the servicing and mechanicing has been done by non franchised personnel and possibly owner drivers. They would think you were having a laugh ! 

I had a Stag (sold this last 12 months) hence my exposure to their forum which also has their hubs failings (they share the Innsbruk suspension system with the same hubs as TRs and big Triumphs) and my decision was to buy CV driveshafts and new hubs...cost £1100, didn't worry me in the slightest. There are many shiny or Alloy items that owners buy but are not fitted on my cars, but show me a part which even just stands a chance of keeping me on 4 wheels instead of the possibility of killing my wife and dying with her in a ditch...where do I sign ? 

The CV shafts give a marked improvement in ride over standard sliding spine driveshafts but even if you prefer a standard design driveshaft surely the cost effective choice is to buy NEW hubs and fit them to whatever driveshaft you prefer.

RogerH has spent a lifetime chasing and testing for cracks in Aircraft and their various parts and he is "de man" for testing processes and says   

...if you are going to rebuild a unit then seriously consider a new shaft item 42 Shaft
This is one of two things that can snap and you lose the wheel. The old shaft can not be positively crack tested.
It goes from good to broken in very short order.
some of these high strength steel alloys do not help the NDE (NDT) inspector as the period from start of cracking to failure can be very short.
Also many of these steels allow micro cracking (un-inspectable) to exist for long periods before going bang.
Aircraft parts that use these materials are usually 'lifed'. I think our original hubs are at the end of their life.

...,due to the nature of the steel and its heat treatment crack testing will do no good.
If there is a crack then you may find it. But. you will not find a crack that has not start yet or is very very small.
Similar steel on aircraft is often life'd as once the steel structure starts to 'go' it will be rapid.

..The rear hubs are nigh on impossible to detect prior to failure.

Roger chose to replace his old hubs with original spec hubs from Moss, a good choice, at least everything should be interchangeable with existing units.

There are at least 3 CV different driveshaft options and another 3 or 4 different new hub options which will merge happily with your choice of sliding spine original spec driveshaft or CV to suit what you want to afford. Your own cars, your own choices.

Mick Richards 

 

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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If you’re changing a rear spring with CV axles & hub, you have to undo the nuts at the diff to be able to drop the arm low enough?

 

also, does a Quaife hub fit to a standard u/j driveshaft?

Edited by johnwill
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4 minutes ago, johnwill said:

 

 

also, does a Quaife hub fit to a standard u/j driveshaft?

Yes though TBH I would fit the larger UJ versions direct from Proptech.

Stuart.

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Thanks Mick. The title of the discussion was wheel bearings and I could not understand the problem as you usually get warning signs when wheel bearings are giving up. It appears from your very good description that is is the hub itself that fails not the bearing.

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56 minutes ago, johnwill said:

If you’re changing a rear spring with CV axles & hub, you have to undo the nuts at the diff to be able to drop the arm low enough?

 

also, does a Quaife hub fit to a standard u/j driveshaft?

As stated previously in the thread

...Just a point which many TR owners will follow, the releasing of the rear shock absorbers to gain under TR working space is common, but the CV driveshafts are engineered to operate within the trailing arm controlled droop, Some years back there were a few TRs with CVs fitted that suffered damage to them with unrestrained droop on the trailing arms it overextending the CV driveshafts beyond their operating range.

When in service if you again need the space to work underneath it's good practice to avoid over extending the CV driveshafts and causing problems, so undoing the diff flange end of the driveshaft and wiggling the flange off the studs allows you even more space before you undo the rear shock absorber and the trailing arm goes into full droop.

The undoing of the 4 nuts connecting the CV driveshaft and inner flange to the diff flange allows the entire driveshaft to be eased off the studs whilst remaining complete and attached to the wheel hubs. Then if the shock absorbers are removed for gaining extra space with the trailing arm going into full unrestrained droop beyond the normal operating range of the CV shafts the entire shaft can deflect without overextending and causing damage. After other work is completed just jacking up the trailing arm and refitting the shock absorber then allows the inner CV drive shaft flange to be represented to the diff and the studs reconnected with nuts. ...Good practice. 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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