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TR4a Rear Wheel Bearing


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Hi all
 

When MOT’d I had an advisory on play in the left hand rear wheel bearing. I bought a set of bearings but noticed they’re tapered, so wonder, are they adjustable with the drive shaft out? I bought uprated shafts new not that long ago, so I would be surprised if they are worn out especially if tapered adjustable. The play is fairly minimal around 2 or 3mm top to bottom.

I’m wondering being the left hand side, whether it settles more than the other side with the force applied on roundabouts etc.

Any thoughts please ?

 

Regards

Kevin

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Hi Kev,

tearing down a rear hub is not for the feint hearted.  You need some special tools. However some folk have reported that they have rebuilt them.

I believe that the bearings are not tapered (I could be wrong on that one).

Can you feel/hear any roughness when spinning the wheel?

Some folks believe they have adjusted the bearing by tightening the big nuts on the back (dream on).

How old are your hubs?

Moss do their own new hubs and they are good. 

 

Roger

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11 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Kev,

tearing down a rear hub is not for the feint hearted.  You need some special tools. However some folk have reported that they have rebuilt them.

I believe that the bearings are not tapered (I could be wrong on that one).

Can you feel/hear any roughness when spinning the wheel?

Some folks believe they have adjusted the bearing by tightening the big nuts on the back (dream on).

How old are your hubs?

Moss do their own new hubs and they are good. 

 

Roger

Hi Roger

I’ve not taken it apart yet so I’m non the wiser, but it looks like you need something like a decent fly press or similar just to get the hub off. I’ve read posts on this forum about tightening the large nut. The bearing does looks a tapered type, but sounds like adjustment is a no-go area ?

The driveshafts with hubs were bought only about 4 years ago of the uprated type. I doubt the cars done enough mileage to wear it out. Would you suggest sending it to someone like TRGB?

Thanks

Kevin

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Hi Kevin,

       Yes, they are tapered but separated by a collapsible spacer which is where the re-assembly problem lies, it's a bit of a black art getting exactly the correct end float without collapsing the spacer too much (that happens and you have to take it all apart and start again with a new spacer), and getting the hub off the stub axle requires a very special puller, anything less will result in a distorted hub, also these days there is a strong suspicion that the forces required to separate the hub and stub axle lead to an early demise of the axle (the wheel drops off!!), ...... after all, in some cases these parts are 50+ years old and may have undergone this treatment a couple of time or more.

          Tightening up the big backing nut and lock nut sort of works but it really is a bodge and at best just a temporary measure.

I take these uprated shafts/hubs are the original Triumph type, not the C/V shafts and hubs ..... (if C/V type, just tighten up the big centre nut, around 220ft/lbs)

           Really, one for the specialists I'm afraid.

Cheers Rob 

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Hi Kevin

I have taken apart and rebuilt a few of these. The bearings have an end float of about 2-4 thou when assembled. There is a collapsible spacer between the bearings. As you tighten the big nut, that collapses the spacer until you get the correct end float. There is then a locknut/washer to hold it in place. If you tighten too much then the bearings could seize so tightening the big nut in your case not advised. With an end float on the bearing, then you will have some play at the edge of the wheel. If there was no play at all then it is possible that the bearings have been tightened beyond the recommended end float. I only use Timken bearings. 

At an MOT I have had the same discussion as you but with an 'old school' mechanic who knew that a bit of play was normal for this type of bearing assembly. Better to have a bit of play than have it all seize up when it gets hot. A couple of mm I would live with.

This isn't a job for the faint hearted and you need the proper tools. I have a heavy duty puller that fits over all 4 wheel bolts and I have a reinforcing plate as well to prevent bending the flange. You need a dial micrometer and magnetic holder. Reassembly is tricky to get the correct end float. Tighten the big nut a bit, check measurement, tighten a bit, check again etc. When you have 2-3 thou then tap it with a soft mallet to 'settle the bearing. Check measurement and it will have altered. Keep repeating this until you have 2-3 thou consistently. Tighten locknut, Check again. Don't bend over the lock washer until reading are correct. If you go below 2 thou then you have to start all over again with a new spacer. As I say not for the faint hearted. Also if it has been set correctly initially and then wear on the bearings leads to excessive play then you cannot tighten the big nut again to 'adjust' them again as Roger has rightly said. The big nut is only to be used to set up the new bearings not take up wear. The other part of concern is cracking or damage to the stub axle. To be honest it is a poor design. The front bearings are much more straightforward.

Roger will tell you to buy a new hub rather than try to rebuild but I don't believe a couple of mm is excessive play. Just keep an eye on it and next year it is quite likely it will still be the same.

Keith

Edited by keith1948
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Thanks Rob and Keith for your detailed replies and info appreciated.

As you say a bit of slack is better than it too tight. It’s quite a hefty assembly and unlikely to come apart ( I hope)! 
 

I suppose it’s quite possible that it could all be rebuilt with a new bearings and collapsible spacer only to find after a few hundred miles it has a couple of mm play again.

The shafts are the UJ type but are uprated over standard. I reckon they’ve only done about 5k since being fitted, and presumably we’re rebuilt. 
 

I doubt if the bearings are worn as such, they’re not noisy and as long as it’s an advisory I’m inclined to leave.

Thanks all

Kevin
 

 

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Hi Kev,

I fitted new hubs not because the bearings were worn but because the hubs and stub axle were 50 years old with growing reports of wheels coming off.

After 6 years (apprx 50,000 miles) there is only minimal play (detected by holding 12 & 6-o-clock and wobbling).

Whatever you do ensure that the stub axle is on good order.  Bearings wear out - stub axles snap.

 

Roger

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8 hours ago, boxofbits said:

Thanks Roger I’ll give it a thorough check through.

Kevin

I fear that may not be enough Kevin.

These rear hubs are fitted upon TRs, Stags and the big Triumph saloons. The TRs are the canary in the mineshaft, many of the drivers in their near past used to drive them like Jehu (ie furiously) and as the pendulum of time swings every year we reach the limits of what these parts can stand.

You've probably seen these photos before, they are Stag units which were swapped as a pair from one of the main Stag and big Triumph suppliers, within 4 months one hub broke through the stub axle.

1959016951_StagHubfailure2.jpg.ac806d868d5a2f3be97059b327eb537d.jpg

After returning the hub and receiving a replacement with apology and a further 15months driving had the other original replaced hub do this

2016589560_StagHubfailure.jpg.bf707ad386764bff356ecfcc4537d2ae.jpg

Now the hub has snapped take the opportunity, look deep within, ...see the fretting marks on the matching surfaces, this hub has been cracked INSIDE and continued to hold together for some distance, over weeks and maybe months, until tested and driven to destruction by...the driver...could have been you. The problem with these parts are they are very inaccessible, built up components with difficult processes to split them apart which often means a 20 ton plus press and a oxy torch, if they weren't cracked before hand, they stand a good chance they are afterwards.

We have the resource within the forum to have catalogued these failures... and many have and are available to read from our own forum search facility. 

A) ...Regarding your squeak, I wouldn't drive it until you get to the bottom of the cause, my 6 had an annoying squeak from the rear audible at low speeds, when I took it to Enginuity for them to have a look at, the cause was as per Mick's photo, my hub had cracked 3/4 of the way round the flange, so the wheel was about to part company with the car. When I had the car rebuilt I went for these http://www.vessey-classic-car-servic...m#.XzEOLC2ZMwc not cheap and they do come with their own issues but at least I know that all the wheels should stay on the car.

B)...get new hubs and axles and if you can't afford them park the car until you can. It may not just be you who suffers but other road users. Refurbished are just old high mileage ones cleaned up and could break before you get out your driveway. The L/H stub axle broke just under the edge of the outer bearing where it couldn't be seen. It felt like a flat tyre, slowed down to about 80kph and there was a loud bang, the car (TR4a) went sideways and rolled 1 and a half times, lucky I had a rollbar or I would not be writing this.
Spent 7 weeks in hospital and now have two hands that are not a lot of use any more and a car that is going to take some time to repair. My brother has purchased a TR6 which he immediately pulled the hubs off and found 1 hub flange with the boss broken off like in the photo and the stub axle cracked and ready to part company on the right sides its off the road now until new hubs can be obtained. I have already purchased new C/V joint driveshafts and hubs from Rimmers which are waiting for my hands to start working.

C)...if you are going to rebuild a unit then seriously consider a new shaft item 42 Shaft
This is one of two things that can snap and you lose the wheel. The old shaft can not be positively crack tested.
It goes from good to broken in very short order.
some of these high strength steel alloys do not help the NDE (NDT) inspector as the period from star of cracking to failure can be very short.
Also many of these steels allow micro cracking (un-inspectable) to exist for long periods before going bang.
Aircraft parts that use these materials are usually 'lifed'. I think our original hubs are at the end of their life.

D)...,due to the nature of the steel and its heat treatment crack testing will do no good.
If there is a crack then you may find it. But. you will not find a crack that has not start yet or is very very small.
Similar steel on aircraft is often life'd as once the steel structure starts to 'go' it will be rapid.

E..The rear hubs are nigh on impossible to detect prior to failure.

 

There are at least 3 different CV driveshafts available for our IRS cars, if you buy a set with new hubs including Timking bearings and new stub axles it will cost about £1100, I had a new set for my Stag which makes it easier to sleep at night.

Your cars your choices.

Mick Richards 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Thanks Mick

I’ve a suspicion that the driveshafts (probably Stag) I fitted a few years back had nice new black paint but we’re not necessarily overhauled with new bearings, OR not set up properly, one or both of the two. So what criteria before painting and selling, we’re they subject to I wonder?

It’s well conceivable that the play is the initial onset of cracks and maybe even eventual disintegration, and as the post infers there really is no way of knowing whether the hub flange is cracked for sure even when dismantled and inspected. First of all, I’m tempted to look out the invoice for these parts and find out to what level they were ‘rebuilt’ to.

I contacted TRGB today, and they offer recon hubs with stub axle for around £125.00 plus vat, (£150 odd with a new outer UJ but surcharge on old unit deducted) but again the ‘recon’ does not necessarily give you a full picture of what has been carried out so  I need to check with them.

https://www.trgb.co.uk/products/rear-hub-recon-exchange-tr4a-6

Thanks for pointing the above out Mick, and any play, advisory only or not, is not to be treated lightly by any TR IRS owner as the above posts demonstrate . I know you might differ on this point, but despite all our collective knowledge and experience, it’s too easy to get a bit comfortable as an owner with a few known faults on our cars, which is another reason why the MOT guy is worth his £40 quid in my opinion as they always look at your motor from a different perspective and with expensive equipment like road rollers that the average owner simply won’t have. At least mine was pointed out but they should just fail it End Of…A rear wheel flying off at motorway speeds will be no fun! 

Cheers

Kevin

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Kevin - don't buy reconditioned hubs - that's exactly what earlier posters  have said NOT to do - the process of separating them to recondition them is one of the major causes of them failing - it is a complete false economy .

We had a local member turn up an one of our meetings and we all laughed at the very obvious "squeak" every revolution of the back wheel as he slowly drove up - he is an engineer by profession and had searched high and low for the cause and even asked his local garage to investigate, all to no avail.

None of us were laughing a week later when we learned his nearside wheel had overtaken him at 70mph on the A12 in the outside lane, and by the grace of god,  he managed to avoid a massive accident. The hub had sheared just as in Mick's photos - guess what, it was a reconditioned hub from a well known TR parts supplier less than a year and 1500 miles previously - our member was shocked at the somewhat cavalier attitude of the supplier when confronted with what had happened and the general consensus over the safety record of reconditioned hubs - they eventually agreed to supply a CV jointed alternative at a discount price but wouldn't accept any responsibility for supplying parts well known for failing in a safety critical way.

Is it worth the risk - in my opinion, absolutely not. When you work out the cost of replacing the standard set up with new items, you will quickly find a CV jointed set woks out very similar in price, if not cheaper, and is infinitely safer and better than the original - to me it's a no brainer

Cheers Rich

Edited by rcreweread
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Only git reconditioned hubs if they have a new stub axle fitted.

The forces required to separate the hub assembly can prove too much for 50 year old stub axles and they have a reputation for shearing not long after being rebuilt.

Personally I am a fan of the CV jointed drive shafts. They leave the car feeling more planted on sweeping bends even compared to the coated splined shafts from the likes of proptech.

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Reading all of this, I will most likely replace all the hubs front and back with the ones from Vessey.  The 4A IRS is new to me and it worries me that there is no easy way to check the rear hub for cracks.  I don't mind the usual smaller issues coming with old cars but the idea of losing a wheel is not something I entertain.  And the car needs to cope with a 2000kms trip this summer, with 2 people, loaded and some highway miles.....

Is there any other supplier than Vessey I should check for high quality hubs? Revington maybe?

 

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2 hours ago, Lo100469 said:

Reading all of this, I will most likely replace all the hubs front and back with the ones from Vessey.  The 4A IRS is new to me and it worries me that there is no easy way to check the rear hub for cracks.  I don't mind the usual smaller issues coming with old cars but the idea of losing a wheel is not something I entertain.  And the car needs to cope with a 2000kms trip this summer, with 2 people, loaded and some highway miles.....

Is there any other supplier than Vessey I should check for high quality hubs? Revington maybe?

 

Dennis Vessey is the only supplier I believe though I suspect Racetorations also supply them as they deal with Vesseys.

Stuart.

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4 minutes ago, stuart said:

Dennis Vessey is the only supplier I believe though I suspect Racetorations also supply them as they deal with Vesseys.

Stuart.

Racetorations are the supplier now.... Dennis no longer is the supplier

Tom

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37 minutes ago, Tom Boyd said:

Racetorations are the supplier now.... Dennis no longer is the supplier

Tom

Thanks Tom, I hadnt bought a set for a while.

Stuart.

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I had a conversation with TRGB today regarding their reconditioned hubs. I did ask if reconditioned means new bearings etc, which they are, but using original hubs and flanges, the latter being machined to re-face them.

So that means yet more material has been taken away from flanges which are 50+ years old, and who’s to say someone hasn’t thumped the hell out of them with a sledge hammer trying to separate them in the dim and distant past which might just have started a tiny crack, and 50 years is a long time!
 

So despite the assurances, which to be fair to them were genuine as they fit them to their own cars, I ordered a pair of complete shafts/ hubs and flanges, with the CV joints. Although they are just over a grand, the actual difference between recon hubs, by the time you’ve added in new UJ’s etc is only around £400 odd quid. 

The CV joints used are supposed to be OEM Toyota or similar as used in production so should be good. And to reflect Andy’s point of view above he did say that they can tell a CV drive shaft car without looking at it, as the car feels smoother to drive overall and in bends etc. 

So… that was my decision and I’ll fit them at the weekend and see what it’s like. He did welcome my feedback so I’m satisfied with my choice.

What I can’t be satisfied with is doing a long trip such as in my case the RBRR again next year, flying down the M74/ M6 at full chat, thinking how many revolutions that shaft must be doing, in the car with my son at night, and wondering if a drive shaft is going to let go! 
 

Kevin

 

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Just as an update to my driveshaft issue, I’ve now fitted the new shafts but have yet to drive it.

The shafts are quite different as you can see in the photos, most notably they incorporate CV joints as opposed to standard UJ’s. There is a very large lump of metal where they attach to the diff, so this may provide some damping effect when driving.

They attach to the differential flanges in a similar way except that the bolts are built into the shaft. Removal of the old shaft is as per the normal procedure, being the entire shaft is pulled through the trailing arm housing once the 6 backplate nuts are removed.

You have to disconnect the standard shock absorbers from the chassis to create sufficient room to push them through from the back into the trailing arm. The major difference here is that the hub and flange have to be pulled off the shaft and reattached once the shaft has been fed through from the back of the trailing arm.

I’m not certain if the new shafts come with shorter studs for wires as those supplied were the longer variety for steel wheels. So I had to cut these down and re-face them with a file. I allowed one thread or so to protrude from the double bevelled nut.

Finally, the hub has to be tightened to around 210 lb ft, so in other words, Tight! My torque wrench goes up to 100 lb ft, so I went this far. Working on my own, I reattached the hubs, carefully dropped the weight of the car onto the surface, and retightened with a very long bar another 1/4 turn. I’ll take it to a garage, remove the spinners and get them to tighten finally to 210 lb ft.
 

Good luck to anyone carrying out the conversion. 

 

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18 minutes ago, boxofbits said:

Just as an update to my driveshaft issue, I’ve now fitted the new shafts but have yet to drive it.

The shafts are quite different as you can see in the photos, most notably they incorporate CV joints as opposed to standard UJ’s. There is a very large lump of metal where they attach to the diff, so this may provide some damping effect when driving.

They attach to the differential flanges in a similar way except that the bolts are built into the shaft. Removal of the old shaft is as per the normal procedure, being the entire shaft is pulled through the trailing arm housing once the 6 backplate nuts are removed.

You have to disconnect the standard shock absorbers from the chassis to create sufficient room to push them through from the back into the trailing arm. The major difference here is that the hub and flange have to be pulled off the shaft and reattached once the shaft has been fed through from the back of the trailing arm.

I’m not certain if the new shafts come with shorter studs for wires as those supplied were the longer variety for steel wheels. So I had to cut these down and re-face them with a file. I allowed one thread or so to protrude from the double bevelled nut.

Finally, the hub has to be tightened to around 210 lb ft, so in other words, Tight! My torque wrench goes up to 100 lb ft, so I went this far. Working on my own, I reattached the hubs, carefully dropped the weight of the car onto the surface, and retightened with a very long bar another 1/4 turn. I’ll take it to a garage, remove the spinners and get them to tighten finally to 210 lb ft.
 

Good luck to anyone carrying out the conversion. 

 

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Do your brake drums go on to give the original clearance from the back plates?

Stuart.

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4 minutes ago, stuart said:

Do your brake drums go on to give the original clearance from the back plates?

Stuart.

I’ll measure both shafts today to make sure on that Stuart. The drums didn’t bind on the shoes when back and have a gap between the back plate, but I’ll double check. They did offer me wheel spacers which I declined, but that was due to the longer stud length. 
 

Kevin

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