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Tr4 Rear Axle seal replacement?


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Hello

I've (still) thinking about replacing the axle tube seal (see picture).  My axle leaks.

I've studied the Hayes manual, but I'm rather nervous about this procedure. However, I have a specific questions:

  • I have a three-leg puller which neatly fits the hub. Will this do the trick?
  • Assuming I can get the hub off, and then can remove the bearing housing as a single item, can I then swap the seal without touching the half-shaft?

I'm doing this as a short term fix just to get the car mobile.

Alternatively, how easy is it to withdraw (and more worryingly for me - re-install) the half shaft?

I'm going to assume that the hub bearing is ok - but if it isnt then I might do the entire bearing & seal replacement. But I dont have bits of pipe to tap in seals, etc.

I'm also going to assume that its all do-able if the puller can do its job and the hub isnt stuck fast: all is needed is confidence? i have asked similar questions before, so I'm now aware the hub can be on very tight.

All suggestions, no matter how obvious, are very welcome. 

Thanks, Adrian

axle2.jpg

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STOP!

You do not need a puller to get at that axle tube seal.  Definitely do not use a legged puller either unless you fancy having to renew a bent drive flange.

 

Just undo the 6 hex head screws that hold the half shaft and hub assy to the axle tube.  These are accessed from behind the hub.  Knocking down the lock tabs is probably the most difficult task.

Consider fitting speedi sleeve to the axle shaft where the seal runs.   After a couple of seal renewals to cure an oil leak in the axle, fitting speedi sleeve fixed the recurring leak.

 

read here  of others who have done this.

 

 

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Hi Adrian,

Are you sure your axle leaks? Hopefully not a silly question, but I have know over enthusiastic  home greasers overdue the nipple on the back of the hub.

As regards your direct question.

I wouldn't touch the hub. Strip the brakes off, then clean and undue the six bolts on the back of the hub, (You'll need to bend back the locking tabs) and withdraw the whole halfshaft assembly really very straightforward. Change your axle tube oil seal and replace, nothing special about the job at all, that I can remember,

just make sure you keep all the shims together, clean and refit exactly as they were removed.

John.

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Hello

Thanks very much indeed. I think I've finally grasped it. And I'll put my 3-leg puller back in it box....

Its appreciated, really. I'll give it a bash (so to speak). And the speedi sleeve may well be on the cards. But I will be taking a few deep breaths before I pull the shaft!

Adrian

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32 minutes ago, adriantr4 said:

Hello

Thanks very much indeed. I think I've finally grasped it. And I'll put my 3-leg puller back in it box....

Its appreciated, really. I'll give it a bash (so to speak). And the speedi sleeve may well be on the cards. But I will be taking a few deep breaths before I pull the shaft!

Adrian

The only difficult bit is getting the seal out as if its an original then it will have a steel outer which needs  a seal pick to remove easily.

Stuart.

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1 hour ago, adriantr4 said:

Hello

Thanks very much indeed. I think I've finally grasped it. And I'll put my 3-leg puller back in it box....

Its appreciated, really. I'll give it a bash (so to speak). And the speedi sleeve may well be on the cards. But I will be taking a few deep breaths before I pull the shaft!

Adrian

Way you go Adrian, honestly you'll have nae bother.

John.

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15 hours ago, james christie said:

Using one of these makes life a lot easier and saves unnecessary butchery
image.jpeg.6e56920025d90af5193b1decfc420f80.jpeg
james

Yep thats what I meant by seal pick.

Stuart.

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Leaking axles may be due to pressure build up in the axle

Check the breather on the upper driver's side of the diff is clear: if blocked the oil in the axle warms up expands and leaks through any oil seal

It is a good early check to potentially avoid a lot of unnecessary work.

I speak from experience (like most contributors!)

Regards

MichaelH

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1 hour ago, adriantr4 said:

Thanks for the good advice. I've ordered the seal pick, and I'll also check out the breather tube.

Also mulling a dial gauge.

Adrian

If you do go down the route of using a dial indicator do not forget that the dimensions/tolerances given in the service manual are imperial.   
Check axle end float with both wheels off the ground and before you take it all to bits, so you know if you need to adjust on reassembly.

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Hello

Thanks to BlueTR3A-5EKT, and to all posters.

Here is an update on progress so far. I had read that the six bolts that hold the bearing housing to the axle flange can be very tight & had ordered a six-point quality socket.

I decided to give it a go (unfortunately before reading BlueTR3A-5EKT's above post). To my surprise there were no tab washers on either side, and the RHS bolts came undone very easily. They were up pretty firm, but no more than that. In place of the tab washers were split washers. Perhaps in its past life - its a US import - diff work had been done? The diff seal is leaking a little too.

I pushed & pulled the right hand side hub, as expected there was no discernible play. I undid the bolts & extracted the half-shaft, and had a trial practice at putting it all back. All ok. I then replaced the brakes & wheel cylinder, much easier on the bench. I discovered the old cylinder had seized solid.

So far so good. I then went through the same process, and the left side was the same - bolts up moderately tight but no problem to undo. With the bolts freed off I again pushed & pulled the hub. To my alarm, there is about 1/8 inch play. I tightened it all back up up, but the same result?

Suggestions?

This LHS half shaft does have wear, I can feel it with a fingernail. And this is the problem leaky side - it smells of hypoid. A fair amount of oily grease in the tube.

The RHS tube was awash with just grease - probably me and others in past times over-keen with a grease gun. There is no wear on the RHS shaft by the seal. Looks ok.

All comments gratefully received.

Adrian

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The end float of both half shafts needs to be 4-6 thou. the shafts will move as one piece so the end float scan be measured with a DTI at either end.

But it must be measured with the bolts from the axle flange through to the hub done up to 26-28 Ft lbs at both ends

So not surprising that there is a lot of movement when the bolts are freed off.

Plan A would be to replace bolts do up to spec torque then measure the end float. If less than 4-6'" then add more shims if more than 4-6thou remove some shims.

only remeasure the end float with both sides torqued up

Perhaps if the end float is sorted first then the leak can be addressed by new oil seals in the axle ends

I didn't have lock tabs so I drilled the nut heads and lock wired them

Good luck

MichaelH

 

 

IMG_6947.jpg

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Just to build on what Michael has already said, the play is measured across the whole axle. When assembled the ends of both half shafts contact a thrust button inside the diff which is free to move a certain amount. Thats why there was no play untill you removed one of the shafts allowing the thrust button ( and hence the opposite shaft) to move freely.

Don`t think of it as two seperate shafts, think of it as one solid axle with a bearing at each end, and the correct play is to allow for expansion of the shafts when warm.

That`s why you can only measure the free play when both sides are assembled and torqued up.

Ralph

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Aha, I get it  - think as one axle.

This information is very useful & I am learning a huge amount. I've ordered an imperial dial gauge.

Meanwhile .....  Attached is a picture of the two axle assemblies. There is a fair gap between the bearing housing & hub, particularly on the "problem" shaft, on the right of the picture? This ok?  Also can be seen, if faintly, the wear on the shaft.

And I built up the other backplate - shoes & cylinder.

Thanks, as ever, to all posters.

Adrian

P1010070.jpg

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Hi Adrian

This is normal: the castelated bit holds the outer ring of the hub bearing

the bolts tighten the outer bearing ring against the bearing race which is on the hub when it is attached to the axle flange.

Exactly like the bearings on the front hub (except that there is only one bearing)

The slack is adjustable by changing the shims

I attach two photos of the same axle showing the movement of the castelated bit containing the outer ring

The hub bearings are generally very tough and changing them is a problem as dismantling the hub is difficult

Good luck

MichaelH

PS getting a DTI and a DTI holder with a magnetic base (£20 ebay) was a great step forward for me

IMG_6952.jpg

IMG_6953.jpg

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9 hours ago, adriantr4 said:

Aha, I get it  - think as one axle.

This information is very useful & I am learning a huge amount. I've ordered an imperial dial gauge.

Meanwhile .....  Attached is a picture of the two axle assemblies. There is a fair gap between the bearing housing & hub, particularly on the "problem" shaft, on the right of the picture? This ok?  Also can be seen, if faintly, the wear on the shaft.

And I built up the other backplate - shoes & cylinder.

Thanks, as ever, to all posters.

Adrian

P1010070.jpg

Hi Adrian, it is difficult to tell from a photo, but the area where the seals run look fine to me. 

Ralph

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Hello

Again, my ignorance is shining through .... How do you get the axle tube seal out? 

I have the above handled puller, but I'm unsure how to wield it. I assumed the seal is abutted against a flange, so I'm attempting to make on to the metal part of the seal itself, which seems to be quite soft.  All I'm doing though is mangling the visible circle of metal. Do I press on and try to destroy the seal & then hook it out? Force in a small screwdriver between the seal and axle tube to distort the seal & then shift it?

(Or, I think I read somewhere of a puller to extract it?)

As ever, all suggestions welcome.

Thanks, Adrian

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Well first of all yes, you will destroy the seal !!

Try easing it out gently a bit of it at a time by going round the seal hooking the beak under the metal and levering the head of the tool against the opposite side.

There may be a bit of corrosion between the outer metal ring and the axle tube that demands a bit more persistance and patience.

Good luck!

james

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

I thought I'd give an update, and again ask a question.

I got the axle tube seals out, but it was a bit of a battle. I broke the head of the handled tool described earlier, and I wasn't using much force. I think the seal removing tool is for non-metal flexible seals. After a few attempts trying to bang in a small screwdriver, and failed experiments with a little puller, all I had done was mark the axle tube ends & inner parts. My next attempt, which was a bit hazardous, was to use a gas blow lamp to seriously heat the seals. I prepared for the worst by wrapping a wet towel around the axle end, got a fire extinguisher ready, sealed off the opposite end, and practiced blocking the fired end if it all caught light. 

In the event the seal didn't let go when heated up, probably because it expanded .... but when cooled it suddenly gave in. And the same for the other side.

I've also had a detour replacing the flexible brake hoses and installing new rear brake cylinders and shoes. I followed a recent thread on this, and the cylinders do move in their slot. There is a minor an indent on one side made by the handbrake actuating lever, but this will have to wait. But at least I now I know.

So re-assembly is next. I've cleaned the mating surfaces including the hub spacers. I've bought an Imperial dial gauge.  

The scratches due to my efforts with a screwdriver, etc, aren't as bad as I predicted and I've dressed them out, but I thought I might put a smear of WellSeal around the new axle tube seals. However - these are flexible seals. (And double lipped!). WellSeal seems pretty hazardous.

My Question - will WellSeal attack flexible seals? Is this worth the effort?

Thanks, Adrian

 

 

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Shouldnt need anything if your using the modern rubber type seals but as Mike says get the seal driven in square .

Stuart.

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Hello again

I though I’d give an update as to where I am with replacing the axle tube seals.

I’ve got it all back together after buying an Imperial dial gauge. But I’m a bit fed up as I had the hubs bolted on fairly firmly with 4 bolts each & I got readings of .005” per side, which is spot on. But when I put the remaining bolts in and tightened it all up moderately hard, this dropped to .002 & 003.  The thinnest shim available is .006”, so simply adding this puts it over the limits (.004 to .006)

I think I’ve got a micrometer somewhere, so I’ll need to have it all apart again to measure what I’ve got & calculate a solution. There weren’t many shims – three on one side & two on the other.

I can also see examples of previous work – washers cut with hacksaws, and the hubs only bolted on firmly (ie: see above). Following the good advice here, I checked the axle breather tube which was on almost hand-tight which had an example of the above washer.

The only upside is that I’m getting much slicker at removing & replacing  the half-shafts ….

Any thoughts? Anyone got a mixed set of axle shims I could buy?

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