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Dodgy aero. is my guess. 
but big discrepancy Lewis to Russell for quali.


 

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1 hour ago, ntc said:

As per last year the circuit is a joke enjoy one red flag after the other 

+1 +1

 

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Hamish is on the money.
Compare the Mercedes’ against the other cars from the side, the  Mercedes is the only one with “ jelly mould” styling, with undulating curves in and out. The others still sport slab sides ( in general) which air sticks too easier and can be accelerated down it’s length. If (when) it’s sorted the Merc will come good with bang, the various curves will improve stability giving better cornering, just harder to get right. There’s a development battle underway, as interesting as watching the cars race.

Mick Richards

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On 3/27/2022 at 3:22 AM, RogerH said:

Hi Folks,

 what has caused the Mercedes/Hamilton downfall this season.?

How can all the other teams improve so much and Merc go backwards?

 

Roger

Correlation issues.

There has been much talk about what causes porpoising. The F1 media talking heads attribute it to the air stalling, by a PhD Aerodynamicist I am friends with said on day 1 at Barcelona is that is caused by vortex shedding (Karman Vortex street) inducing resonance into the chassis and aligning with the frequency of the suspension to cause it. Jean-Claude Migeot was the only talking head to comment on this, and James Allison later said as much when he said the F1 media-sphere was incorrect. 

The problem is these things cannot be seen in CFD. CFD does not handle turbulence well and the models are assumed to be infinitely stiff (too hard and not enough computing power). Furthermore, the wind tunnel models are 60%, no to minimal suspension (and won't resonate the same), and are speed restricted. They were only going to find this in real cars on real race tracks. 

 

Lewis's problem this weekend was wrong direction in set-up and different than George. Simple as that. Until they get new parts, they are throwing hail mary set ups at the car. 

Edited by hoffman900
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I think they'll revert to setting Hammy up with Georges settings Hoffy. 

When Hammy used to partner with Jenson Button Hammy would drive the wheels off the car and come in with fastest time and say "leave the car it's ok" whereas Button on the same set up would come in from his session with a slower time and say "understeer turn 3, 5 and 7 and oversteer on 9 with the cars balance changing as the session went on becoming looser...change it". Sure enough setting the same settings as Buttons on Hammy's car gave even better pace, which Hammy delivered on. I don't believe he's the most technical as regards what he drives...he just gets the best time out of whatever he's sat in !  

Mick Richards 

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28 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

I think they'll revert to setting Hammy up with Georges settings Hoffy. 

When Hammy used to partner with Jenson Button Hammy would drive the wheels off the car and come in with fastest time and say "leave the car it's ok" whereas Button on the same set up would come in from his session with a slower time and say "understeer turn 3, 5 and 7 and oversteer on 9 with the cars balance changing as the session went on becoming looser...change it". Sure enough setting the same settings as Buttons on Hammy's car gave even better pace, which Hammy delivered on. I don't believe he's the most technical as regards what he drives...he just gets the best time out of whatever he's sat in !  

Mick Richards 

That was a long time ago now (a decade ago). I think George is willing to go with whatever the engineers give him at this point where Lewis, as he has gotten older, is more of an Alain Prost type, and seems to have a lot more input into the setup. 
 

It did work better on hard tires later in the race, with Lewis running the same times as George on 20-some lap old hards to George’s fresh mediums. The problem is they are setting up around this porpoising issue, so a lot of what they are learning now won’t hold true when/if they get the car working. 

Edited by hoffman900
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Thank you, Hoffmann, you put it clearer than I could.

Visualising, a Karman vortex "street" looks like this:

image.png.9cd2da88f55ccb39d7dc9444b35142d0.png

You can see how this will impose an oscillation on the car, and the vortex squirts off, one way, then the other.

 

Edited by john.r.davies
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19 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Thank you, Hoffmann, you put it clearer than I could.

Visualising, a Karman vortex "street" looks like this:

image.png.9cd2da88f55ccb39d7dc9444b35142d0.png

You can see how this will impose an oscillation on the car, and the vortex squirts off, one way, then the other.

 


Thanks for the image! 
 

A lot of people give Adrian Newey credit on RB’s side right now, but he was only 23yo when they got rid of tunnels in F1 and he was in Indy Car until 1985. Tunnels were used there but the tools were really rudimentary. 
 

I think from the chassis side of things, RB’s technical partnership Multimatic helps a lot, especially with their CART/Indy and WEC/IMSA experience. Obviously, it still stems from an aero issue. 
 

I found a post from a former F1 aerodynamicist some years ago talking about Karman Vortex induced oscillations in regards to the front wing, but they got away with it because as a % of total downforce, it got canceled out. Not so now if the issue is with the floor. 
 

fyi: for those that don’t know, these forces are what cause skyscrapers to go into resonance and need a tuned mass damper at the top. 

Edited by hoffman900
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Famously, Adrian Newey doesn't NEED a tunnel - he can SEE the wind!

 

My paper this morning quotes George Russell as saying he had just the same problem as Hamilton with his car, and that with the best of luck they don't hope to be competitive towards the front for "eight or nine races"!    How ironic, that another 'boy genius', and new British hope, arrives at Mercedes just they drop the biggest clunker onto the circuit!

John

Edited by john.r.davies
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6 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Famously, Adrian Newey doesn't NEED a tunnel - he can SEE the wind!

 

My paper this morning quotes George Russell as saying he had just the same problem as Hamilton with his car, and that with the best of luck they don't hope to be competitive towards the front for "eight or nine races"!    How ironic, that another 'boy genius', and new British hope, arrives at Mercedes just they drop the biggest clunker onto the circuit!

John

They had a different set up. It’s documented everywhere. 
 

Adrian Newey absolutely needs a wind tunnel and cfd. Also, I always think it’s a bit disingenuous he gets all the credit when he is dealing with nearly 1000 engineers across RB and their suppliers.  

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Is this the same issue that Tesla have?  
Follow one and note the bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, travel sick look from rear seat passengers scenario.

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A mixture of problems:

Power - the Mercedes engined cars are not seeing to do as well as normal, not just the Mercedes cars.  Naturally Ferrari have a credulity gap following their burning of oil to enhance power and many will question how they have suddenly leapfrogged the others. Honda have put in a huge effort to get their engines up to scratch and via Red Bull have recruited a number of key staff from Mercedes. Has their gain been Mercedes loss? (A bit like when Adrian Newey wanted to take a share of Williams and left when that was turned down - the loss was huge)

Aero - The new designs require time for teams to identify the best features, particularly with the restrictions on testing.  If you get the chassis and aero package wrong then it takes time to rectify and get the balance right. Mercedes seem to have gone on a slightly different path to the others and haven't seemingly got the set up of the modifications right.

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/28/2022 at 8:12 PM, hoffman900 said:


Thanks for the image! 
 

A lot of people give Adrian Newey credit on RB’s side right now, but he was only 23yo when they got rid of tunnels in F1 and he was in Indy Car until 1985. Tunnels were used there but the tools were really rudimentary. 
 

I think from the chassis side of things, RB’s technical partnership Multimatic helps a lot, especially with their CART/Indy and WEC/IMSA experience. Obviously, it still stems from an aero issue. 
 

I found a post from a former F1 aerodynamicist some years ago talking about Karman Vortex induced oscillations in regards to the front wing, but they got away with it because as a % of total downforce, it got canceled out. Not so now if the issue is with the floor. 
 

fyi: for those that don’t know, these forces are what cause skyscrapers to go into resonance and need a tuned mass damper at the top. 

They are also the reason why the tubular TV masts at Mendip Penhill and Belmont have chains hanging in them. And the lack of vortices is why Emley  Moor fell down. 

Rgds Ian

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