DenisMc Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Hi all, I am continuing to try to eliminate the petrol smell from the boot of my TR5. I have now done pretty well all of the fixes that have been suggested by various forums. The car is fitted with a Bosch pump and filter assembly that is fitted in the front lefthand the corner of the spare wheel well. The pipe from the pump to the PRV and a short length between the filter and the pump inlet are quite flexible and it has a black woven covering that is furry to the touch. There is no specification marked on the pipe but looking at photos it does seem to be present in a number of the Bosch pump conversion kits that are on the market. Does anyone know if this pipe is ethanol resistant? Sorry that this is a bit vague. Many thanks, Denis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 18, 2022 Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 Ethanol resistant is has a broad range. Firstly, the pipe’s mechanical properties (strength and hardness in particular) must not change (too much) but the smell is also dependent on the permeability of the pipe material. I have fitted good quality hoses where I could (I used Gates Barricade for the high pressure side and another Gates type for the suction line (Barricade is only available in smaller diameters). The booth still is not smell-free. We cannot stow our clothes there, if you know what I mean. I will remove the tank, and replace the little 3/16 pieces from the return lines and maybe also the cork tank sender gasket and filler hose. If anyone had a good solution for these 2 items I would be interested. Cheers, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DenisMc Posted February 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) Thanks Waldi, I have replaced all of the low pressure hoses with Gates Barricade to SAE30 R14. The last but one owner did a good job of replacing the sender cork gasket, with the addition of Wellseal, and I have just replaced the fibre washers. My suspicions are finally drawn to the pump to PRV pipe as the smell seems to be the strongest in that corner of the boot. This is why I'm asking about the furry pipe. It has crimped on fittings so am not sure if Barricade could be used. There are alternative pipes available but if they are more rigid I understand that the high pitched resonance issue could occur. Regards, Denis Edited February 18, 2022 by DenisMc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 18, 2022 Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 Gates Barricade Fuel Injection hose can be used for this; I had a piece of it and a local hydraulic shop pressed the crimp sleeves on. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kenrow Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Waldi said: Ethanol resistant is has a broad range. Firstly, the pipe’s mechanical properties (strength and hardness in particular) must not change (too much) but the smell is also dependent on the permeability of the pipe material. I have fitted good quality hoses where I could (I used Gates Barricade for the high pressure side and another Gates type for the suction line (Barricade is only available in smaller diameters). The booth still is not smell-free. We cannot stow our clothes there, if you know what I mean. I will remove the tank, and replace the little 3/16 pieces from the return lines and maybe also the cork tank sender gasket and filler hose. If anyone had a good solution for these 2 items I would be interested. Cheers, Waldi I don't know if you can get these in the UK: https://www.bpnorthwest.com/triumph/tr250-tr6/fuel-system/fuel-tank-sending-unit-gasket-bolt-on-style-viton.html Edited February 19, 2022 by Kenrow added info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Thanks for that Kenrow, I live in The Netherlands, so by the time this gasket has arrived from the USA, it will be very very expensive, but I think I can buy Viton plate overhere, so will make my own here. (Should have thought about that myself) Cheers, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Last November I decided to replace my 30 year old Bosch pump (how much longer would it last?). Whilst in there, I thought I would replace the fuel tank, prv and all hoses too. The hoses were braided mostly from Revington and I mounted the pump set outside under the boot floor protected by an Ali shield. I replaced the sender as the float was leaking and used a new cork gasket with a little heldite on both faces and the screw holes. I also used Revington’s tank to filler hose too. What I have found is that there is zero petrol smell in the boot now - absolutely zero - and with a full tank of fuel. Maybe this is down to combination of things; tank, hoses, pump being outside …. Etc. I also found that the car now starts on the first turn of the key even after the winter lay up which was a welcome unexpected consequence, I think, of changing the prv. Obviously, this is only my experience. Cheers dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Great Dave, this shows it can be done:) Which hoses and PRV do you have installed now? Pump and filter outside of the boot may be part of the solution too. I will battle on. Maybe the cork tank seal is not the culprit but while I’m at it…. Does anyone know if the sender itself is gas tight? Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 It is a diaphragm prv bought from tr trader some time ago. My original prv seemed to be perfect - absolutely bob on fuel pressure so no reason to change it until I change the tank etc etc. I changed the prv first and ran the car for a week without any other changes. The difference in car starting was immediate. A great mod making a real world positive difference. The tank, pump and hoses were all sourced from Revington. Expensive but I thought that a purchase from one supplier, especially one who does development of their products, should (fingers crossed) guarantee success. The hoses mainly came with the pump kit. The exception is the filter to prv hose. I chose the longer version of the Teflon lined ss hose as TRRev said that will eliminate fuel smell and be compatible with the prv and so avoiding resonance. The hose I used is here …. Photo …. But I ordered the longer length. cheers. dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Thank you Dave, I will remove the tank first to see if there are any obvious things. I’m considering the option to re-locate the pump to the wheel-arch and use the teflon lined hoses too. My car starts very well, so want to see if I do not gave the harmonic resonances as a result of the ptfe first. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DenisMc Posted February 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 Thanks all, for the useful information. The ultimate solution may well be moving the pump and filter to be outside of the car to behind the nearside rear wheel and fitting the Revington PRV. Oddly though, looking at the photographic record of the restoration of my car 21 years ago, the pump and filter were mounted in that position. Going by a receipt in the history file, a past owner bought the current Bosch pump and filter arrangement in 2012 and fitted it in the boot. Like Waldi, I shall battle on for now. Rimmer Bros sell a fuel pipe TGK125Q3 to go from the pump to the PRV. I have asked them what the specification of the hose is in order to check its permeability to ethanol. I await their reply. Regards, Denis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 20 minutes ago, Waldi said: Thank you Dave, I will remove the tank first to see if there are any obvious things. I’m considering the option to re-locate the pump to the wheel-arch and use the teflon lined hoses too. My car starts very well, so want to see if I do not gave the harmonic resonances as a result of the ptfe first. Waldi Hi Waldi. Yes I initially had concerns regarding eliminating fuel smells and creating resonance but was swayed by what TRRev had to say. At least if it does occur I feel more confident of a better outcome with TRRev than if I’d bought individual parts from Rimmers. My old Bosch is /was the legendary 996 pulling through the old cav filter. I think that a good deal of the smell was due to the filter set up. I had another episode of vaporisation last year in wales so decided to mount a new pump externally to hopefully give it the best chance of working in hot weather. As my car is blue, I feel that there is probably a lot of heat soak from the exterior body panels into the tank. When it happened in Spain a few years ago, I had been driving for nearly 5 hours, had to use E10 as nothing else was available and the temp was mid 30’s. To be honest in those conditions I felt like I was about to vaporise never mind the fuel. Only time will tell I guess. Looking forward to some Euro driving in the summer ! cheers Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 16 minutes ago, DenisMc said: Thanks all, for the useful information. The ultimate solution may well be moving the pump and filter to be outside of the car to behind the nearside rear wheel and fitting the Revington PRV. Oddly though, looking at the photographic record of the restoration of my car 21 years ago, the pump and filter were mounted in that position. Going by a receipt in the history file, a past owner bought the current Bosch pump and filter arrangement in 2012 and fitted it in the boot. Like Waldi, I shall battle on for now. Rimmer Bros sell a fuel pipe TGK125Q3 to go from the pump to the PRV. I have asked them what the specification of the hose is in order to check its permeability to ethanol. I await their reply. Regards, Denis Hello Denis. I thought a prv either works or it doesn’t. I never would have believed how much of a difference the diaphragm type would make to my car. Fitting it was a challenge in the tight confines next to the tank. It made sense to me to replace my tank at the same time as I could see some rust in there. When I got the tank out there was a handful of broken valve springs in there ! Who knows how many decades I’d been driving around like that. Talk about never throwing anything out ! I’d be surprised if Rimmers will confirm anything about spec of any parts other than by saying that they have sold zillions of these parts and never had any complaints before so they must be ok. At least with TRRev I feel there is at least some technical backup if things go wrong. cheers Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 (edited) Very interesting about the prv making a real difference to starting. the ONLY thing i dont like about my 6’s motor is the excess of cranking required after a layup of a week or more so i might try one of the diaphragm prvs thanks for the info Dave steve Edited February 19, 2022 by Steves_TR6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 Rimmers always say the same answer. There is no question that Revington are reliable and have a proper development workshop. The parts are not expensive compared to some classic cars. 911 etc. Good luck Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 It is difficult to locate petrol leakages, because petrol evaporates and only a minimal volume is enough to give an intense smell. Is there a method, like a sensor to trace the source? Has anyone tested this and i with good results? Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DenisMc Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Hi Waldi, That is a very good question and I eagerly await the answer! As someone suggested might happen, my email to Rimmer Bros requesting the specification of the hose they use in pipe assembly TGK125Q3 has remained unanswered. We went for a good runout last Sunday and when we got home the petrol smell in the boot was very strong. I wonder if the ethanol permeates through the pump to PRV hose more readily when the pipe is under pressure? I see that the latest Revington TR fuel pump kit is advertised on page 36 of the latest TR Action issue 335. The wording actually makes reference to the faint smell of fuel accumulating in the boot whilst the pump is in operation due to modern fuels permeating through the walls of the rubber hose.... Regards, Denis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Hi Dennis, Neil Revington’s ultimate solution is to install pump and discharge filter in the wheel arch, and use PTFE lines and to avoid harmonic resonance (as a result of the hard teflon pipes), install a membrane-type PRV. It is an expensive kit, but if it solves the smell issues it is worth considering. I’m still on the trial and error trail; yesterday I have ordered some Cohline hose (R9 spec) for the line from tank to pump (discharge is Gates Barricade, R14 spec so that should be ok; I hope the Cohline hose will further reduce the smell to (hopefully) almost zero. Wait and see. By now with all my attempts I have spent a couple of hundred euro’s…and still have not resolved it satisfactory. That is why I wonder is affordable sensors are available, and if anyone has used them. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 Having tried for years with this problem , will be watching with interest . Can i assume that those running carbs do not have this problem. Ruling out leaking tanks and fuel pipe also the fumes from exhaust being sucked back into the boot. Many who move the pump into the wheel arch still leave the PRV in the boot. Roy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 13 hours ago, Waldi said: Hi Dennis, Neil Revington’s ultimate solution is to install pump and discharge filter in the wheel arch, and use PTFE lines and to avoid harmonic resonance (as a result of the hard teflon pipes), install a membrane-type PRV. It is an expensive kit, but if it solves the smell issues it is worth considering. I’m still on the trial and error trail; yesterday I have ordered some Cohline hose (R9 spec) for the line from tank to pump (discharge is Gates Barricade, R14 spec so that should be ok; I hope the Cohline hose will further reduce the smell to (hopefully) almost zero. Wait and see. By now with all my attempts I have spent a couple of hundred euro’s…and still have not resolved it satisfactory. That is why I wonder is affordable sensors are available, and if anyone has used them. Waldi Why didnt you use the R14 for that instead of R9? Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 Hi Stuart, That’s because 12 mm is not available in R14 over here (or anywhere?). And 10 mm idem dito. Cheers, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 Found this on the WWW on another forum. Some R9 spec hose appears to be poor (dangerous) quality. https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/200186/psa-warning-fuel-hose-failures?page=1 Here is a picture of this hose (I’m sure the original poster on the above forum does not mind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DenisMc Posted March 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 (edited) Hi Waldi, I am wondering whether this Cohline hose would be suitable from the pump to the PRV. Here is a data sheet: https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/files/transfer/technical/doc/cohline_2240_data.pdf Unfortunately, there is no mention of ethanol permeability... Having changed all of the low pressure hoses to SAE 30 R14 I am convinced that the current delivery pipe is the culprit. Here is a link to the Merlin Motorsport web site: https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/high-spec-rubber-fuel-hose-by-cohline-per-metre-2240-0600 and I also found this: https://www.cohpro.com/low-pressure-hose-and-fittings/hose/fuel-hose/fuel-hose-low-permeation-2240.html Incidentally, I have noticed some differences in the Bosch fuel pump kits that are available to fit in the corner of the boot. On my car (Moss also, and others) the petrol goes from the tank to a low pressure filter and then to the pump. Others I have seen have an inline low pressure filter in the line from the tank that then go to the pump and then to a high pressure filter that is connected to the PRV. Regards, Denis Edited March 11, 2022 by DenisMc Addition Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted March 11, 2022 Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 Hi Denis, the Cohline 2240 is a low permeability hose, so that is good news. The information indicates that allowable working pressure is 10 bar and allowable temperature is 125 degr. C (short term even 140 degr. C). But maximum allowable pressure and temperature cannot be combined. So it could be suitable, but I suggest contacting Cohline and ask if it can be used for “our” conditions: 35-40 degr. C COMBINED with 105 PSI. I recommend using crimp-sleeves, not the standard jubilee clips. If you decide to go for the jubilee clips, I recommend to use 2 clips next to each other (with no space between them otherwise the rubber will “bellow out”), this will “mimic” a crimp sleeve, sort off. Check the tightness after a couple of days in service. You should not be able to twist the hose over the fitting. About the filters: Ask ten people and you will hear 10 solutions/preferences. So FWIW, I use a Sytec SF2012 suction filter but have no discharge side filter; I do not see a need for that with the relative large tolerances in our old design MU, PRV and injectors (compared to modern fuel systems). A course suction filter (like 30 microns) with a finer discharge filter is a possibility too. This is what Revington do sell I think. TBH I’m disappointed in my results so far with the “smell-in the boot-battle”, last thing on my list is an improved tank filler hose (from Revington), expected in 2 weeks. Regards, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DenisMc Posted March 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) Hi Waldi, thank you for your very useful reply. As you suggest, I shall investigate the suitability of the Coline 2240 hose further. I am concerned that it might be too stiff and the resonance issue will occur. If I can find a local company that can crimp on the appropriate fittings I’ll perhaps make up a hose and give it a try. Which bore size should I use? Regards, Denis Edited March 12, 2022 by DenisMc Typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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