Hamish Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) My Sticker is now proudly on the car https://trees.fbhvc.co.uk I went for the rally option as the only motorsport category why don’t you join me. Edited February 9, 2022 by Hamish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter V W Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 Yes Hamish, a very good cause. But we need to make sure the existing forested areas are maintained in good order. Good agricultural land used for food production is being purchased by companies for carbon offset. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 These schemes always leave me a little unsure. Rows of green plastic tubes with small saplings within - just how long will it be before they are really doing anything of note regarding carbon capture. Here in West Sussex huge swathes of woodland are being ripped up - some for housing and development, but most appear to be under the banner of Ash die back control. Yes the dead Ash are all around and some areas are almost entirely Ash and so the work appears devastating, but I've seen large healthy mature Oaks, Beech etc being felled in amongst the Ash. I understand that much of this is chipped for energy generation. How many years will those green tubed saplings require to replace just one mature tree? Peter's point about the loss of agricultural land is also important. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 So we don’t bother to do anything ?? leave the argument to those that would be happy to see the back of cars let alone our classics? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavidBee Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Hamish said: So we don’t bother to do anything ?? leave the argument to those that would be happy to see the back of cars let alone our classics? +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 No, not at all Hamish. I'm just expressing some concern/doubt about some of these schemes and the juxtaposition of the destruction of woodland seen around the country for various reasons - some not justified imho - plus the need for good, well managed, agricultural land to provide food as well as habitat. Of course doing nothing is not an option, it's just my frustration in observing what doesn't appear to be joined up thinking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 15 minutes ago, Rod1883 said: Of course doing nothing is not an option, it's just my frustration in observing what doesn't appear to be joined up thinking. I certainly agree with that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 12 hours ago, Hamish said: So we don’t bother to do anything ?? leave the argument to those that would be happy to see the back of cars let alone our classics? Hi Hamish, you have started quite an emotive subject. I have often wondered why the world Gov'ts have allowed places like Brazil to allow its people to destroy the lungs of the planet. Why have the UN etc NOT purchased all the greenery in the Amazon and beyond to pay off Brazil's debts and make them wealthy. At present they can't control what they have. In vast areas of the world we have massive forest fires. We have out of control deserts. What is being done to reclaim it back from Mother Nature. Madagascar is shriveling up and we are allowing its unique collection of wildlife to become just a memory. Why isn't the South of the island being brought back to life. So many areas of concern and nobody doing anything - but I'll bet somebody is making money out of the disasters. So what good is planting a tiny sapling going to do for us and the world. Firstly at least each individual sponsor will be at ease with their self knowing that something was attempted. Do nothing and we fail. Do whatever we can and there is hope. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boxofbits Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, RogerH said: Hi Hamish, you have started quite an emotive subject. I have often wondered why the world Gov'ts have allowed places like Brazil to allow its people to destroy the lungs of the planet. Why have the UN etc NOT purchased all the greenery in the Amazon and beyond to pay off Brazil's debts and make them wealthy. At present they can't control what they have. In vast areas of the world we have massive forest fires. We have out of control deserts. What is being done to reclaim it back from Mother Nature. Madagascar is shriveling up and we are allowing its unique collection of wildlife to become just a memory. Why isn't the South of the island being brought back to life. So many areas of concern and nobody doing anything - but I'll bet somebody is making money out of the disasters. So what good is planting a tiny sapling going to do for us and the world. Firstly at least each individual sponsor will be at ease with their self knowing that something was attempted. Do nothing and we fail. Do whatever we can and there is hope. Roger Hi Roger You’ve reminded me that I sponsored the planting of a tree on woodland near to Beachy Head back in the 1980’s. I’m hoping it’s still there. Planting a sapling is a positive way forward unless someone knows where to find mature trees to plant. Apparently one tree absorbs 48 lbs of Carbon Dioxide per year BUT at what rate are developers ripping them out at ? Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne Scott Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, RogerH said: Do nothing and we fail. Do whatever we can and there is hope. Roger Roger has nailed the point exactly with this phrase. Another is that members constantly ask me what to do if they start having members of the public confronting them in fuel stations accusing them of being polluting - let's be clear - we are not. But we need some demonstrable schemes that show we are doing our bit to be net-zero. There were other schemes that put money into funds that went into the developing world, but it was felt that something tangible in the UK, that we could all visit one day would resonate more with Uk enthusiasts and also it needed to be part of a wider set of benefits around re-wilding, flood control and positive contribution to the local ecosystem through the exclusive use of native species etc. The science around the surprising impact of all this is really interesting when you get in to it and I entered the process a cynic and came out the other side with a lot more optimism for our future. The launch of this scheme was 2-years in the making with independent research input from more than one university research department to check the workings and science behind the benefits. There is no silver bullet, but it's one step closer to loading the gun with something... Thanks for the support Hamish! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 As you say Roger a very emotive subject and I am probably going to make myself unpopular by saying this, but just to take up a couple of your points: 1 hour ago, RogerH said: I have often wondered why the world Gov'ts have allowed places like Brazil to allow its people to destroy the lungs of the planet. It is widely believed that the Amazon produces most of the oxygen but this is wrong. Around 70% comes from ocean plants -phytoplankton and others. Most of the other 30% comes from all terrestrial plants but only about 6% from the Amazon so it is not "the lungs of the planet" - those are the oceans. 31 minutes ago, RogerH said: In vast areas of the world we have massive forest fires We do - but in fact we always have had. They are no larger in extent or frequency now than those which occurred a century and more ago. (I can't find a more recent graph so this one ends in 2015. I know this is just Ca but the second is from Australia) The central dip in the first graph probably reflects good forest management but the recent increase has happened partly because controlled-burning is no longer exercised due to new conservation laws - in Australia people reportedly have been prosecuted for clearing dead brushwood from around their homes. It is only because wider habitation has spread into the woodlands that more people are now at risk , and of course the recent universal availability of video makes things look so terrible on the TV news, in comparison to a simple newspaper report as would have happened historically. 35 minutes ago, RogerH said: We have out of control deserts. Well deserts have never been under control. Some areas may be expanding a bit, but others are doing the opposite. For instance it seems Sub-Saharan Africa has 'greened' by 8% in the last decade. This graph is from ten years ago so things may be even greener in places now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 Trees are now too little too late. Maybe a few saplings planted 40 years ago would by now be sequestering CO2 as fast as Hamish's TR pumps it out. But we are in a climate emergency and no longer have time for waiting for trees to grow. There is an alternative: the giant fast growing grass Myscanthus, that can be cropped annually and used to make charcoal for use as a soil improver. The carbon thus sequestered immediately offsets emissions. However this solution needs farmer input and is unattractive financially compared with "fit and forget" saplings. FBHVC's scheme will attract opposition from knowledgeable CCGW activists whose campaigning emphasises the urgency of the situation. My personal rebuttal is to point out that I have not taken an airline flight for 20 years. The younger generation are wedded to cheap flights. So my sticker will say: MY TR FLIES : I DO NOT. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) But surely I have a whole life argument for my tr. A 1959 car (mostly the same parts so not like triggers broom) still going. as opposed to how many new cars in that time ? 6 or 10 there are people that change their car every 3 years. I know one guy who is on his 3rd elec or hybrid company car because he is green !!! please don’t slag off a scheme that tries to make a difference. Yes there may be better ways. Edited February 10, 2022 by Hamish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne Scott Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 41 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said: Trees are now too little too late. Maybe a few saplings planted 40 years ago would by now be sequestering CO2 as fast as Hamish's TR pumps it out. But we are in a climate emergency and no longer have time for waiting for trees to grow. There is an alternative: the giant fast growing grass Myscanthus, that can be cropped annually and used to make charcoal for use as a soil improver. The carbon thus sequestered immediately offsets emissions. However this solution needs farmer input and is unattractive financially compared with "fit and forget" saplings. FBHVC's scheme will attract opposition from knowledgeable CCGW activists whose campaigning emphasises the urgency of the situation. My personal rebuttal is to point out that I have not taken an airline flight for 20 years. The younger generation are wedded to cheap flights. So my sticker will say: MY TR FLIES : I DO NOT. Peter Except the point is that we are not attempting to carbon balance all road transport - just a hobby where historic vehicles already account for less than 0.25% of the total miles covered in the UK (that includes all historic vehicles, not just cars). We are already so minuscule in our carbon output as to not make any difference at all whether we are here or not in reality. This is an exercise therefore in doing our bit and demonstrating it as such publicly. A can't do, won't do, too difficult attitude is no longer an option. Expect to see Myscanthus fields increasingly popular in the UK as they are a key source for ethanol production and fuel for biomass boilers. However, planting native and mixed woodland needs to be more dynamic as part of re-wilding than simply creating dead prairies of grassland with zero biodiversity - or the dead acres of pine forest that have covered Northumberland since World War 1 for another example. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 IF tree planting were effective at offsetting fossil CO2 the FBHVC scheme would be admirable. But the CCGW campiagners no longer regard off-setting with trees as a viable response https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/dangerous-distraction-offsetting-con Those stickers invite contention. Best that classic owners rehearse arguments other than planting trees. Lifetime carbon cost of a classic vs replacement of moderns is one. Expenditure of cash and time spent in the garage versus flying abroad on holidays. On the basis of carbon cost per day's entertainment owning a classic must be pretty low on the list. The benefit to the economy of a rebuild is considerable: we need to show that the carbon cost is low compared with other leisure activities, especially holidaying. The fuel consumed by classics in indeed a tiny fraction of total. But classics are conspicuous consumers, and the youngest generation of non-drivers will have us in their sights. It is their future under threat. Offsetting is regarded by them as a dangerous distraction. It is so..........yesterday. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 6 hours ago, RobH said: As you say Roger a very emotive subject and I am probably going to make myself unpopular by saying this, but just to take up a couple of your points: It is widely believed that the Amazon produces most of the oxygen but this is wrong. Around 70% comes from ocean plants -phytoplankton and others. Most of the other 30% comes from all terrestrial plants but only about 6% from the Amazon so it is not "the lungs of the planet" - those are the oceans. We do - but in fact we always have had. They are no larger in extent or frequency now than those which occurred a century and more ago. (I can't find a more recent graph so this one ends in 2015. I know this is just Ca but the second is from Australia) The central dip in the first graph probably reflects good forest management but the recent increase has happened partly because controlled-burning is no longer exercised due to new conservation laws - in Australia people reportedly have been prosecuted for clearing dead brushwood from around their homes. It is only because wider habitation has spread into the woodlands that more people are now at risk , and of course the recent universal availability of video makes things look so terrible on the TV news, in comparison to a simple newspaper report as would have happened historically. Well deserts have never been under control. Some areas may be expanding a bit, but others are doing the opposite. For instance it seems Sub-Saharan Africa has 'greened' by 8% in the last decade. This graph is from ten years ago so things may be even greener in places now. Hi Rob, I bet you don;t like Greta Thunderthighs either Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 How dare you! You win your bet Roger. The sainted gnome-of-doom cuts no ice with me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 2 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Rob, I bet you don;t like Greta Thunderthighs either Roger And Greta lambasts carbon offsetting: https://fortune.com/2021/11/04/greta-thunberg-cop26-carbon-offset-lie-mark-carney-swearing/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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