Smart SMETS2 meters

[keith1948]

I am currently being hounded by my energy supplier to have a SMETS2 smart meter fitted. I know the SMETS1 devices needed a mobile signal (which we don't have) but the SMETS2 apparently work on a WAN system via DCC or whatever. Don't really want either not only because of poor mobile connection issues but we also have frequent power cuts. Like most electronic devices a power cut seems to cause them to throw a wobbly and they stop working. Question is what are your experiences? We are with Scottish Power near Evesham but as for mobile connectivity may as well be in the highlands of Scotland (or maybe they are ok?).

If I can prove that there is a technical reason for not having a smart meter I have been informed in writing by the company that I can still go on the smart only tariffs. Problem is that I can't find coverage maps for WAN only but only for for mobile providers. I really don't want a bunch of cowboys turning up and fitting meters to find they don't work and leaving us with a problem. Looking at comments online this has happened to several people.

As with car technical issues I work on the principle - if it aint broke don't try to fix it. My old meters work and I provide readings regularly so no problem at the moment.

What are your experiences?

Keith

[RobH]

This may help Keith:

https://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

there is also a very interesting question-and-answer thread here which explains some of the problems:

https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/if-there-s-no-mobile-signal-in-my-area-should-i-still-get-a-smart-meter-fitted-5275

In the south, SMETS2  still needs a 2/3G cellphone link to DCC which is the WAN, though for non-signal areas they may also communicate via other meters if need be by forming a 'mesh'.

The present 2G/3G wireless networks are scheduled to close by 2033 and then the meters will have to use 4G instead.

 

( For the record I have refused a 'smart' meter. I don't want any device which can turn off the power by remote control -  a function deliberately built into all of them. )

Edited January 2, 2022 by RobH

[JohnG]

Just pandering to your kneejerk position Keith, there is so much pressure to 'go smart' that you have to ask, Why?

Cost savings for the company, obviously, but, the reliability of these things is still patchy.

To start with, is it beyond the wit of man to cater for power cuts, by having the manufacturers fitting meters with a back up battery system?

Out of the blue, following emails extolling the virtues of smart meters, and my point blank replies, refusing to have one, my previous supplier (British Gas) sent me an email, saying that an engineer would be arriving at my address, 2 weeks hence, to fit a smart meter!

Where the hell did that come from?

Following a very terse email, the 'appointment' was cacelled.

But what would have happened had I been a doddery old fart?

No.  Until they have a proven track record of reliability and accuracy, I'll not have one.

(Note; To replace my meter, they will have to remove 1/2 our fitted kitchen, it was this that finally persuaded them to back off)

[keith1948]

Thanks for replies. I have looked at O2 coverage here and there isn't any 2/3/4 or 5G. As for a local network we have 3 neighbours nearby so unlikely that would work. Also I think the electric meter cupboard is going to be too small to fit extra aerials so would need a rebuild. The only plus I have is a recent main incomer fuse upgrade to 80amp included a breaker on the negative line. I think the power suppliers are being pressurised to fulfil quotas regardless of whether they will work or not. Also can't see how they save energy unless the householder actually switches things off or replaces electrical items with more efficient ones. On that score I remember taking a bag full of energy efficient halogen light bulbs back to the shop I got them from. These had all blown within a couple of months. It was cheaper for me to go back to tungsten bulbs and pay for the extra electricity than buying the newer 'energy efficient' ones. In the rooms with 2 light switches I had to rewire the twin wire link between the switches for a twin plus earth wire. The live wire was inducing a voltage of about 120 volts on the unconnected wire and this was causing the fluorescent bulbs to flash as the capacitor inside discharged at regular intervals. Took some time to understand what was happening there.

I think from what I have read that a SMETS2 won't work here without lots of technical jiggery pokery.

At the moment trying to figure out why our TV set gets the low and high frequency channels but not the one in the middle. Friends locally have the same issue.

Don't you just love technology

Keith

[Misfit]

I had a similar experience John like you I contacted the company explaining when I want a smart meter I’ll let them know I don’t at this time. Access will be denied,

[brian -r]

No company or Government department has come forward with a valid consumer benefit for Smart Meters. Some time ago certain suppliers provided  customers with a simple energy monitor , a transmitter device which clipped around the feed from meter to fuse box and a display screen in the house which gave your usage etc and they worked well.

I like many don't like the idea of my energy usage being able to be controlled remotely at any time , which is the primary benefit of these devices that no one wants to tell you. 

Reliability of supply for both gas and electricity until a sustainable supply of green energy can be guaranteed should be the priority. We need a long term  energy strategy not short term plasters.

Brian

[keith1948]

Today I get another automatic email from Scottish Power demanding I pay the amount outstanding on my bill. This was because I made the mistake of submitting meter readings a few days before the direct debit came out of my bank account. If I do as they are demanding then I will be in credit by the same amount as I am currently in deficit. There is also a message to say they will be increasing my direct debit from next month because it isn't enough to cover my energy usage. I have already done that but their computer system has yet to register that fact. The moral of this is to wait until your direct debit is paid in before submitting meter readings.

I tried ringing customer services but they are all on festive celebrations holiday. Funny that I thought Hogmanay was cancelled north of the border?

Keith

[RogerH]

Hi Keith,

I was with Scottish & Southern electric. for many years and didn't realize they were ripping me off.

I was typically paying £130+++ per month and they would up the DD on a whim (try getting getting it back). My last fantasy DD would have been £180/M

I changed over to Octopus in April 2019 and now pay appx £60 per month.  For the first year I was over paying by about £50/month. 

So now I am actually paying £50/month and the rest comes out of the balance.

However because of the useless Gov't actions over the last 30 years my electricy has increased by 30+% in the last year.

Keep the primus stove handy

Roger

[keith1948]

6 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Keith,

I was with Scottish & Southern electric. for many years and didn't realize they were ripping me off.

I was typically paying £130+++ per month and they would up the DD on a whim (try getting getting it back). My last fantasy DD would have been £180/M

I changed over to Octopus in April 2019 and now pay appx £60 per month.  For the first year I was over paying by about £50/month. 

So now I am actually paying £50/month and the rest comes out of the balance.

However because of the useless Gov't actions over the last 30 years my electricy has increased by 30+% in the last year.

Keep the primus stove handy

Roger

Hello Roger

Happy new year. Dare I ask if you have a smart meter? When you changed supplier was that a condition of changing supplier?

Keith

[Charlie D]

I must be the odd one out because I have no problem having a smart meter.

People who worry about the supplier being able to cut off the gas or electricity at a whim should ask themselves why the supplier should want to do that. If it was because of some “Big Brother” type of demand by the government (for what ever reason) then all you need is a screwdriver, adjustable spanner, and a bit of pipe and you can bypass the meters and reconnect your supply.

Drastic action, yes, but if masses of supplies were cut off for whatever reason then there would be civil unrest and all sorts of other things would be happening.

Smart meters allow suppliers to harvest information about your lifestyle. Yes, OK. I’m not in the least bothered if someone knows when I switch the heating off and go to bed, or what time I boil the kettle in the morning. (Algorithms can work out all sorts of thing about you from your energy usage profile.)

I have a display in the kitchen that gives me a real-time readout of my energy (Electricity AND gas) usage and it HAS mad a different to the amount of energy I wasted in the past. Last week I had a letter from my supplier telling me that they were reducing my monthly payments by £15 a month. So the meter has saved me £180 a year.

Charlie

[RogerH]

30 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

Hello Roger

Happy new year. Dare I ask if you have a smart meter? When you changed supplier was that a condition of changing supplier?

Keith

Hi Keith,

I didn't have a smart with SSE (they did ask frequently if I wanted one).

Octopus have never asked if I want one.

 

Hi Charlie,

the suppliers knew before smart meters how much an area used and when.

Roger 

[RobH]

1 minute ago, Charlie D said:

People who worry about the supplier being able to cut off the gas or electricity at a whim should ask themselves why the supplier should want to do that. If it was because of some “Big Brother” type of demand by the government (for what ever reason) then all you need is a screwdriver, adjustable spanner, and a bit of pipe and you can bypass the meters and reconnect your supply.

 

The reason they will want to do it is for load-sharing Charlie. The idiotic power policies currently in place are pretty certain to result in shortages of energy and the only way to control it will be to ration the supply.  (The next generation of smart meters will be capable of turning off individual equipment in your home which draws significant power. That is already being planned.)  

When power-cuts happen the criminally-irresponsible may try to bypass meters as you describe but smart meters are fitted with tamper alarms which phone home, so the supplier will soon know. Prosecution would be bound to follow.

The only way you can 'save money' is by using less power.  I use just as much now as I feel the need for, and I am well aware of what I am using, so having a smart meter display would make no difference at all. 

[john.r.davies]

" smart meters are fitted with tamper alarms which phone home, so the supplier will soon know. Prosecution would be bound to follow." (RobH, above)

Good thing too!   This Independant article analyses a rising incidence of gas explosion in the UK, some of which may be due to drug crime: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gas-explosions-uk-investigation-safety-b1794742.html

An explosion in Morecambe last year killed a little boy and has been traced to tampering with the gas supply:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-57232373

JOhn

[Charlie D]

30 minutes ago, RobH said:

...the criminally-irresponsible may try to bypass meters as you describe but smart meters are fitted with tamper alarms which phone home, so the supplier will soon know. Prosecution would be bound to follow...

Ian,

Do you really think that the “criminally-irresponsible” would be in the least worried about being prosecuted?

 

John,

I wasn’t recommending the practice of tampering with meters. There have no doubt been thousands of people who already did it in order to reverse the gas meter to make it run backwards for a while. (Not sure if that is still possible, but you were once able to buy a “Bridge pipe” on eBay that made the job of missing out the meter a lot easier.) I think some of the gas explosions were due to that. No, I have never done it, although I have been told of Corgi engineers who would do it for a fixed price. (That was in London, of course )

What I’m talking about is people getting fed up with restrictions to what they want to do. Some people are getting very hot under the collar about vaccinations and lockdowns etc. Once load sharing comes in I think a lot of normally law abiding people will revolt in one way or another.

 

Charlie.

[keith1948]

Hello all

We seem to be drifting off topic a bit. I am mostly interested in the technical issues regarding connectivity in areas where mobile signals are missing or poor, there are few neighbours to set up a local network with, frequent power cuts and anything else that would mean a smart meter would end up being a dumb meter. Not really bothered about big brother watching me but a bit fed up with my supplier pestering me with emails about smart meters that might not work anyway. At the moment everything works fine and I don't mind submitting readings each month. Can't see that a smart meter will improve my life or save energy. I can switch off a switch to do that or turn down the thermostat on the heating or turn down the thermostatic radiator valves. I have read that after a power cut some people have had problems with the monitoring system not working or having to reset the meter. Others have said they carry on working after a power cut but there is an inbuilt battery that needs replacing from time to time. I would have thought that the designers had done something to cope with power cuts.

Keith

[Charlie D]

13 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

...there is an inbuilt battery that needs replacing from time to time...

I asked about that when mine was installed, and I was told they should last 10 years or more. Before 10 years I would guess that the meter would have been replaced anyway. And that is something you need to be aware of now with your "Dumb" meter. There will come a time when who ever you are with will have to come to replace your present meter because of "Old age" (The meter, not you.) When that happens I would bet that you won't have a choice. Smart meters do also have a readout with the numbers on, so even if it can't be connected to the comms systen, you can still manually read it.

For anyone worried about the company switching it off remotely, maybe you could make a tinfoil hat for it.

 

Charlie.

 

Charlie,

[RobH]

37 minutes ago, Charlie D said:

And that is something you need to be aware of now with your "Dumb" meter. There will come a time when who ever you are with will have to come to replace your present meter

You are right that meters must be changed periodically. The latest replacement age for an old-style rotary electricity meter is 10 years from installation while that for a modern 'static' meter is 20 years.

The government has stated that you do not have to accept a smart meter but at the same time they fine the suppliers if they don't meet installation targets, which is why they are so keen fit one.  Also the regulator has said it is acceptable for the supplier to make a 'reasonable charge' if you want to have a new dumb meter fitted, while a smart one is free.  How large that charge may be is unknown. 

It is possible they may be happy to fit a smart meter even if it cannot communicate, since it counts towards their target.  The meter will work, in that it will register your usage and display it, but it will need to be read.  

Smart meter software can be updated - essentially what the thing does can be changed  - with all the potential downside that we all know and love in computers.  An interesting thing is that apparently, software updates for the meters can only be applied over the 'phone connection; there is no facility for it to be done locally. 

(hope that isn't too far off-topic Keith)

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by RobH
typo

[ntc]

2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Keith,

I was with Scottish & Southern electric. for many years and didn't realize they were ripping me off.

I was typically paying £130+++ per month and they would up the DD on a whim (try getting getting it back). My last fantasy DD would have been £180/M

I changed over to Octopus in April 2019 and now pay appx £60 per month.  For the first year I was over paying by about £50/month. 

So now I am actually paying £50/month and the rest comes out of the balance.

However because of the useless Gov't actions over the last 30 years my electricy has increased by 30+% in the last year.

Keep the primus stove handy

Roger

Wait until renewal Roger mine has doubled 

[john.r.davies]

Charlie,

Don't want to deviate the thread any more, but I had no intention of alleging that you had messed with the meter!   The lad's death in Morecambe distressed many, not least his parents, who were totally blameless.

As to restrictions on "personal freedom", what about the Dunkirk Spirit?  Rationing, wearing gas masks, carrying ID cards, "Put that light out!" etc etc.      Have people become totally selfish?   Don't answer that!    Or start a new thread!

John

[keith1948]

58 minutes ago, RobH said:

Smart meter software can be updated - essentially what the thing does can be changed  - with all the potential downside that we all know and love in computers.  An interesting thing is that apparently, software updates for the meters can only be applied over the 'phone connection; there is no facility for it to be done locally. 

Yes Rob I read that somewhere together with telefonica/O2 using the O2 network in the southern part of UK for this purpose. We get no signal with O2. Interesting also that the government fine companies for not meeting their targets. No your answer is not off topic but provides useful info. The power companies information is full of glowing reports of how wonderful life is after getting a smart meter but being an old cynic I know that installation of new 'systems' whatever they are rarely goes without some 'unforeseen' issues cropping up.

I think from the various replies that a stronger mobile signal would resolve some of the problems but the tin hat brigade objected to having a phone mast locally so it was sited the other side of the hill.

Keith

[Mick Forey]

I had both electricity and gas smart meters fitted a few months back. We also live in a "third world" part of the country with little or no mobile phone signal but they seem to cope as, like txt messaging, the amount of data transmitted is very small. We have had a few power cuts with no impact on the meter or monitor functionality. It is nice to see the live consumption but it has not impacted how I use the heating or appliances as I have used economy 7 for years.

Currently, it is all about reducing cost for the supplier, not providing benefits for the consumer until more smart tariffs are launched. Once the current energy "crisis" is over then I plan to investigate such smart tariffs from Octopus etc. to see if I can reduce my electricity costs further. These are only possible if you have a smart meter. As more renewable energy sources come on stream then smart tariffs make even more sense, particularly if you invest in battery storage. If is the future, so you might as well go with it.

Mick

 

[ianc]

In the village where we lived for 28 years before moving to Thame in 2018, we had an electricity meter with Economy 7 (or whatever it was called).  Very useful, but whenever the overhead power to the village was disrupted by falling trees, the clock in the meter stopped.  This meant that the timing of the "Night" tariff slipped, and, because I couldn't change it, I would have to re-check the actual timing of the "Night" period once power was restored.  There were periods when the Night (cheaper) tariff was in the afternoon. 

One of my early tasks all those years ago was to fit Thermostatic Radiator Valves throughout, and to use them!  Heating was by oil-fired boiler - ancient and not very efficient, but fuel was cheap, as was servicing.

In Thame, we have gas and electricity meters on the outside wall, and each month, Shell (which took over from E-On) asks me to read the meters and supply the readings.  There's no Economy 7, I'm sorry to say.  Heating is by modern gas boiler, and there's a gas-fired Aga in the kitchen, which keeps that room warm and, if the kitchen door is ajar, the warmth pervades the rest of the house.

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer living in a house with thermostatic valves on the radiators and an awareness of the consumption associated with electrical devices, I don't need any extra display to tell me how much power we are using.  Pleased to say that none of the dual fuel suppliers here (and Shell is the third i 3 years) has pressured me to opt for a so-called Smart Meter - I would decline.

Ian Cornish