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Engine waterway clean TR4a


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I have owned my TR4a for over 25 years. I bought it from a work colleague who owned it from new. He ran it until it finally succumbed to severe rust and mechanical failures. I spent 6 years (on and off) rebuilding the car using a body shell I acquired from California. I had to put it into storage about four years ago and I have only recently been able to get it back to the house where we live.

I have just started a mini rebuild/recommission and I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for flushing out the cooling system. The engine was rebuilt 20+ years ago. At the time I got away with honing the liners and fitting oversize pistons, so the liners have never been out of the car. That means the waterways have never had a major clean. I have always thought it would be good to acid dip the engine block, but it hasn’t done many miles since it was rebuilt and I am not sure if I could leave the liners in place to do that. Would I need to remove the liners and if I did/could remove the liners would I be able to refit them instead of replacing with new?

Would you recommend several cooling system flushes or would you go down the engine strip and acid clean route? If I do take the engine out at least I could replace the rear crankshaft seal with one of those nice kits you can buy. The rear end has dripped oil ever since I have had the car. 

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Hi Gary,

welcome to the forum.  Nice car.

Not sure how you managed to hone the liners without removing them. Still that's in the past.

Rather than an acid dip now. Why not simply flush it and then drive it until it really does need sorting.

Add something like RadFlush and drive it for a few days. Then pipe copious amounts of water into the engine in both directions.

Don't forget to flush the heater matrix - this can be done separately.

 

Good Luck

 

Roger

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Hi Gary

Rogers beat me to it use and enjoy until you need to remove for a engine rebuild then address the issues as you find them I didnt acid dip mine a good scraper and wire brush in a drill worked perfectly well

Chris 

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Thanks Roger. 
 

I didn’t do the engine machining when it was rebuilt. I just built it up from a short motor, so maybe they were removed  after all. I just remember the guy saying they had been honed. I assumed that could be done with them clamped in place. 
 

I’m going to take your advice and flush the system. I haven’t properly run the car for 4 years, so it makes more sense to get it going again and iron out any other issues I may have before I contemplate removing the engine. It’s good to know that I may have some success flushing it out with the right additive. To be honest I could always do this a few times, as it will be a lot less hassle than removing the engine.

That crankshaft seal leak has always been a pain, but it doesn’t cause any problems other than the odd spot of oil on the floor. Maybe I hold this off for another day as well?

I have never had the head machined for unleaded petrol. I have just used the additives. Once again, I have never had any issues. Would you recommend putting this modification on the to do list or just stick with what I have been doing?

Thanks again !

Gary

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Hi Chris,

I am going to try the cooling system flush. It does make sense. 

I do remember having a few overheating problems in the past. To be fair these were largely due to a faulty thermostat. When I rebuilt the car I always wanted to keep it as original as possible. When I bought the body shell I did a deal to keep the good parts from my car like the boot lid, bonnet, windscreen frame and the front panel. I even kept the original doors and bulkhead/inner wings which I have in the garage loft, just in case I ever think of selling it. Keeping it original meant that I kept the original fan as well, so the cooling is not that efficient in very warm weather, especially if the waterways are a bit clogged up. 
 

Anyway, taking on board sensible advice from you and Roger I will give it a good flush out, replace the thermostat, water pump, all the hoses and just see how it goes before any larger scale work is undertaken.

Regards

Gary
 

 

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Hi Iain,

Had a look at their website and YouTube. It looks very good. It looks like you can buy it from Amazon UK for £40. As Roger said, not cheap, but I am going to give it a go. According to the blurb it’s good for 6 gallons of liquid. I believe a new coolant system would hold around 2 gallons. If that’s right I could get 3 flushes out of a bottle. Just over £13 a flush doesn’t seem as bad. 
 

Thanks for all the advice, Guys. I’m new to this forum and I probably have a hundred questions I could ask. I should have joined years ago. 
 

Malbaby, it scared me to death driving the standard car at any speed. I hate to think what it would be like with a lot more horses without uprating the suspension and brakes. I think I will potter around as it is and just enjoy the ride at my own pace…sluggish !!

Gary

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One simple question.

Does water come out/can you drain the engine from the cylinder block drain?  The tap/plug on RH side of engine above the starter motor.

If yes it is not too clogged.   If no then remove the plug/tap and poke a screw driver in there to get some crud out.   Do this before you do the system flush as you will want to drain the block fully from this point as well as the bottom of the radiator.   
 

Not sure what the recommendations are for flushing and the heater matrix.

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Hi Gary,

as others have said, welcome to our forum, and yes you have a very nice car there, what part of the world are you, because I would recommend to anyone, seek out their local TR Register group, and get along to meetings, you'll find lots of like minded, nice folk willing to help.

 

We have a motto in our group, which is Cumbria Group,

           'If it ain't Broke, don't fix it'

Bourne out of hard earned knowledge of spending cash unecessarily, and often making things worse then they originally were.

So what is the cooling issue with your car?  None?  you are looking at preventative maintainence - yes?

Whith in a year or so, of getting my TR4, nearly thirty years ago, I started checking teh cooling system as follows;-

Find the brass radiator tap above the starter motor, and turn to see if it runs, very unlikely, but anyhow unscrew said tap from the block, and with a thin flat bladed screwdriver get in there poking about amongst all the harded silt that buils up around the back of that liner near the battery, You will usually eventually get some grotty water to flow, keep at it, bits of wire etc., anything useful.

Remove the radiator turn upside down and back flush with a garden hose for half an hour, certainly until the water has run clear for some time.

Using said garden hose in the top outlet on the block will not do any harm, either. Both these operations, are running the water in the opposite direction to normal service, and as such have the better chance of moving long term silt.

I would swop the thermostat, I would not at the moment touch the water pump.

Put all back together, fill with 25% Blue Antifreeze mix, and go run the car.

IF you do want to carry our a flush, after all teh above, which will have only cost a thermostat and gasket, then the greatest stuff to use is Caustic Soda, available from anywhere B and Q etc for  very little money and sold as drain cleaner.

A WARNING HERE, GARY, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY, and never add water to the  powder, always the  other way round, flush that around your system for twenty minutes, and see what you get out when you drain.

 

John.

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Was it stored with water and antifreeze in, or was it drained out and stored.  If it had antifreeze in hopefully the anti corrosion additives will have worked and prevented further internal corrosion. If it was drained first then the residual moisture could have wreaked havoc.

If you think the liners have never been out I would be careful about being too aggressive with the caustic or radflush in case it eats away the remains of the FO8 gaskets, the original ones being steel.

I would follow Johns advice and have a poke around through the drain plug hole to get some idea of the state of the block, flush as much away as possible.

Take off the valve cover and check the alloy plug between cyl 2&3 and make sure that has not corroded through.

Give it one dose of radflush and run for a while, perhaps leave in overnight and run again the next day.

Hopefully the crud from the radflush has now been deposited in the radiator (while flushing leave the heater turned off, you don`t want crud in there!), so now is the time to take the rad out and give it a good old flush out as John described.

Re-fill with water and antifreeze and enjoy, keeping an eye on the dipstick to check for water finding it`s way past the FO8s.

 

While on the subject, when I re built my Austin a few years ago, I filled it with the Red OAT (Organic Acid Technology) antifreeze, not realising that this is intended for cars with alloy rads and heads. I read that this was a no no and heard all sorts about it eating away gaskets etc, so after about a year, I drained it to change to Bluecol, and it brought out an amazing amount of rust coloured silt, and from what I could see inside the head through the thermostat hole, the inside of the cast iron head was spotless, it seemed to have attacked the rust but left the metal clean.

Ralph

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It is important to replace the antifreeze coolant every couple of years because the inhibitors lose their potency over time.

This does not apply if Evans Waterless Coolant is used.

Ian Cornish

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1 hour ago, Chris Hubball said:

I used FERNOX F3 for cleaning central heating systems no problems so far.

Cheers Chris

I believe that's recommended by the Rolls-Royce Owners' Club.

Personally, I also subscribe to "If it ain't broke don't fix it" school, although a drain, flush and refill won't do any harm. I live in a fairly hard water area, so I use deionised water from Tesco to fill the system, with Bluecol of course.

Pete

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I’m in North Wales, John.

Okay, I have a brass plug with a seal where the tap normally fits. I removed it and it was barely damp behind the crud. As recommended, I fiddled around with a small screwdriver then a bit of copper wire. After 10 minutes I managed to get the area quite wet, but it won’t flow. I even tried to put a bit of pressure in the system, but that didn’t help. The water in the radiator is brown with no sign of the antifreeze I did fill it up with a few years ago. The sludge from the tap area looks very black, like the stuff that comes out of your house radiators. I have checked the oil and there are no signs of any water in it and there are no signs of oil in the water system. I took the rocker cover off and despite the car not running for a year it was wet around the rockers and looked pretty much as it should. I also turned the car over by hand and it is free running and feels nice and smooth. 
 

I want to get the engine bay looking good again, so I have started to remove the big items like the carbs, manifolds, dynamo, starter motor, etc, etc. All these bits are good, but they need a bit of TLC. The eventual plan is to strip all the hoses, radiator and every other item that needs a fettle. I don’t mind spending time any money to get things sorted. Gaskets, hoses and even a new water pump aren’t that expensive, so I am willing to have a fresh set. 
 

I have made the assumption that the engine is generally in good condition and therefore I will continue to live with the slight oil leak at the back of the crank. I have drained all the old fuel and will get everything reassembled prior to going back to the water system clean. Once I finally get it flushed out I will then change all the hoses and the pump (if needed). I have ordered some Prestone cooling system flush. It has very good reviews and it was easy to get hold of. It is also pretty cheap at £10/lt from Amazon UK. 
 

It appears that the cooling system is very clogged up, although not completely blocked. What should I do to make sure water, and any cleaner, gets into all the areas of concern? Before I using the flushing liquid I can clean out the radiator and remove the thermostat. I can also isolate the heater and clean this separately. Do you think that is wise? Any further suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks and regards

Gary

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I used the irontite product some years ago on the recommendation of Revington’s. It did the job if you follow the instructions. When I eventually pulled the engine it was remarkably crud free.

Iain

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Hi Gary,

 it is not easy or possible to clean the block of heavy encrustations . You can get a small amount on the move from the block drain hole as previously mentioned.

But it is a small a mount.  I do not know how effective any of the descalers are but worth a try as it is a cheap method,

Definitely give the heater matrix a go as the heater is very useful.  If the rust etc is excessive then you may well end up with it leaking.

The heater can be removed without too much ranting and raving - honest.

I had my block pickled in 2015 and then put in Bluecol.  Now whenever I drain it out it is still blue. No signs of rust.

Roger

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+1 for lots of blue antifreeze: good antifreeze, good heat exchange and good inhibitor

running 25 +% antifreeze is definitely good for engines and stops rust build up in the block/heater

Also agree with the use it first principle, then you find out anything else to sort when you do start digging

Good Luck

MichaelH

 

 

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In conjunction with the flushing agent, keep working away at the crud which has built up behind the block's tap/plug - the more you can clear from there, the better as it causes Numbers 3 and 4 cylinders to get too hot.

Don't be vicious with the prodder - you don't want to cause damage, just release the crud so that it may be flushed away.

Ian Cornish

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I am going to have another fettle at the rear block drain today. I have read up about the sludge that you get in this area. I also noted one of Roger’s previous posts about removing the liners with the engine still in place. Not that I want to go there at the moment. 
 

A few people have mentioned the oily black sludge in the past. One chap bought new pistons and liners as he thought there was a leak at the figure of 8 gasket only to find out later that there wasn't a problem and he had wasted his money. As I mentioned before there’s no sign of any oil in the water system or radiator. Is this oil like sludge caused by metal deposits from the block or could this be a small oil leak from the rear liner? When fettling with a piece of wire it only goes in around 15mm. Is that right or would you expect to get around the liner a little more?

Gary

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Should go more than that I think. In the past I have used a thin screwdriver, about 6" long (the thin bit, not inc the handle) & could get it most of the way in.

Bob

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There is a gap all the way around the liners from top to bottom, or at least there should be. The black crud coming out is most likely just oxidized cast iron, unlikely to be any oil in there.

Ralph

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