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FUEL SMELL BUT NO LEAK!


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I’ll keep the talc suggestion in mind. Thank you Stuart. 
I did some top end sealing earlier so will find out tomorrow if successful. Gut feel is the escape is gas rather than liquid, so near top as tank is very nearly full ( anti E5 impact).

Willie

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Hi Willie,

I own a TR5 so I hope you don't mind me joining in your TR4/4A thread. I too have struggled with trying to eliminate the smell of petrol in the boot. Suspecting the problem was caused by ethanol in the petrol I recently replaced all of the low pressure pipes with Gates Barricade hose to SAE 30R14. My car has petrol injection so is obviously different to yours but this involved replacing the tank to filter and the PRV to tank hoses. It may have made an improvement but a petrol smell is still present. On reading this thread my attention has turned to the fuel sender unit gasket. This was replaced by a previous owner, who also tried to eliminate the petrol smell, in 2015 with the cork gasket 2H1082. Looking at the joint closely it appears to be bubbling a little. I have attached some photos. Could this be caused by petrol vapour leaching through? Perhaps I should fit the Moss Viton alternative, 293-401. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,

Denis

 

IMG_1714 (1).jpg

IMG_1715 (1).jpg

Edited by DenisMc
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Denis, are you sure that isn`t just gasket sealer that had oozed out when the gasket was changed, especially if it was changed by the previous owner trying to ensure it did not leak.

Ralph

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Hi Ralph,

Thanks for your reply. I did wonder that myself and you may be correct. However, as you probably know, the cork gasket is in fact a mix of cork and rubber particles, with the rubber acting as a binder. Looking at the photograph of the gasket on Moss, which is where the previous owner sourced it, the rubber is actually black. Click on the link below to see:

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/gasket-sender-unit-2h1082.html?assoc=129097

Which makes me wonder if the petrol is degrading the rubber and causing the black rather gooey effect. I suppose there is only one way to find out... 

Regards,

Denis

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Hi Denis

Have a look at the piece of 'rubber' pipe connecting the filler cap to the tank. Make sure the clamps are tight. I have just bought some new tube from Holden that claims to be ethanol resistant.

https://www.holden.co.uk/p/fuel_filler_hose_lined_2_in_51mm_dia_x_200mm_long

Regarding removal of the sender gauge gasket - does anyone have tips on removing it without bits of gasket dropping into the fuel tank? I am just about to change the cork gasket for Viton but wondering how I prevent bits of old gasket dropping into the tank. I did wonder whether something along the lines of those little umbrellas used for cocktails inserted into the hole and pulled up while I scrape the old gasket off the tank. Then carefully push it down a bit, close it up a bit and pull it out with the crud inside. Sounds easy on paper (back of an envelope idea) as long as the whole lot doesn't drop in the tank! Other ideas welcome.

As said elsewhere the screws holding the sender gauge have fibre gaskets to stop fuel vapour escaping around them.

Keith

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Hi Keith,

Thanks for your reply. The clamps are tight and the hose was replaced in 2015 by the then owner. He fitted hose 650279 from Moss. This may not be ethanol resistant so thanks for the link to Holden. I think that your suggestion of using a cocktail umbrella is inspired!  Perhaps it would be good to have an able assistant holding it in place as  the gasket is scraped off... I don't know what the hole diameter is but a possibility might be using a plastic pint or half pint beer glass. I have both and they are round and also have a taper so could work well as a bung. After a wash you could then use the glass for its intended purpose by putting some beer in it! Assuming that you are also suffering from a petrol smell I shall be interested to hear if you eliminate it.

Regards,

Denis

Edited by DenisMc
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  • 3 weeks later...

UPDATE:

Still have n obvious petrol smell in boot, despite changing filler neck hose for a Mackay unit c/o Revingtons.  I haven't tried the "talc test" yet, but have gone for wrapping toilet paper round the hose end gaps top and bottom to see if the paper looks shrivelled if damp. Done same under fuel pump assembly. Pics attached. I've run my fingers all over seams, sniffing every few inches - NOTHING! My gut feel is that with an almost full tank, the fumes are being generated from the top somewhere. Otherwise there would be dampness, surely?

Willie

P1150120.JPG

P1150136 Toilet paper round joints.JPG

P1150137 Toilet paper under pump & filter.JPG

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What hose is that by the pump? The smell could be permeation from them. Also is that an ally tank? Have you checked the seams?

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Don't know if it is significant but you seem to have 2 different types of screw bolt holding the fuel gauge sender in place. Hex and Allen key types by the look of it. Just had a look at mine and I have dome headed slotted screws. There is no steel washer between the screw head and the fibre washer. There may be a remote possibility that it could be the way yours is secured. The fibre washers on yours are only sealing between the washers and top of sender. Maybe fumes can creep up the bolt threads and still escape between the washer and head of the bolt/screw?

The fuel cut off tap and filter on my 4A are under the bonnet. As you say you would probably have fuel 'wetness' if there are leaks on the fuel pipes. You do have a lot of connections though. You could relocate the filter to the engine bay maybe. Those glass filter types screw together and there is a 'rubber' seal inside each end. I don't know whether these seals are ethanol resistant or not. I have yet to take mine apart to investigate. Make sure the unit is screwed together properly. It probably is if there is no evidence of leakage there.

Keith

 

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Thanks Stuart and Keith.

Stuart - hose type per photo attached.  YES, alloy tank. I have run my fingers over every accessible seam, but no petrol smell or dampness. Ditto on all bolted threaded blanks.

Keith - Sender as I acquired the car 9 years ago.  Filter ahead of pump, with another in engine bay just ahead of #1 carb to stop issues with jamming float valve.  I have dabbed Heldtite over the screw heads and around the circumference of the mounting flange to no avail.  Messy but in desperation!1390392527_2a.viewfromNS.thumb.JPG.10c4852b333d634bab03c0c22c25b7bb.JPG

P1150140.JPG

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I would move up to R14 Hose as thats more resistant to vapour escape. Also still try the talc dusting everywhere as it only takes the slightest weep to really stink.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Filters are tight!

Yes, Stuart, I'll get a suitable brush and get dusting! as soon as I confirm no dampness on my toilet roll sheets!   Any reliable supplier of R14 5/16" hose recommended?

If no leak discovered, I guess new tank and Revington sender as current one reads 25% low.

Willie

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14 minutes ago, stuart said:

I would move up to R14 Hose as thats more resistant to vapour escape. Also still try the talc dusting everywhere as it only takes the slightest weep to really stink.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart

From the figures on this link below, R9 and R14 are the same for permittivity. Both are better than R6. Only difference is pressure rating between R9 and R14. I would leave R9 in place myself.

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm

 

 

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3 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

Hi Stuart

From the figures on this link below, R9 and R14 are the same for permittivity. Both are better than R6. Only difference is pressure rating between R9 and R14. I would leave R9 in place myself.

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm

 

 

Go to Gates website for a better explanation. They have a product to sell on the Volks site.

Willie here you go https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402094860670?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Might be an idea to remove the pump and pipes and blank everything off with a small piece of hose and bolt/clip. Remove the pump and pipes from the car.

That way you’ll eliminate the pump and hoses and petrol pipe from the tank. Mine did that for some time and it turned out to be tank porosity, even though the fuel evaporated as it leaked. I suspect the tank or a weld has fractured. 
 

Kevin

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8 minutes ago, Willie said:

Thanks very much for ll today's inputs.  I think I'll invest in that UV torch and dye and go from there.

 

Best wishes to all            Willie

As I said I have no idea if it works but only one way to find out. Good luck with it and let us all know how you get on. Similar kits are said to work well finding leaks on domestic pipework. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't reveal that your tank is full of holes.

Keith

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1 hour ago, keith1948 said:

Just a thought but do any garages local to you have fuel leak detection equipment?

Or maybe try a UV kit such as

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Torch-Detection-Fluid-Petrol-Diesel/dp/B00TU9BHN6

No idea if it would work but not that expensive.

Keith

That kit is for oil leaks, dont know if it would work for fuel.

Stuart.

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Hi Willie,

This is where I bought the Gates Barricade hose that I used on my TR5, as mentioned in this thread. It is to SAE30 R14.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GATES-27304-Barricade-Fuel-Line-Hose-27304-/353635280372?hash=item52564e25f4

I used this to replace the low pressure hoses in the boot.

Regards,

Denis

Edited by DenisMc
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FINAL (?) UPDATE:

I gave the tank one final check over for "smelly fingers" . To my surprise, I actually got the fuel aroma from the innermost securing screw on the fuel sender plate.  Carefully applied Heldtite and the smell has finally gone after overnight stand.

In case of the leak returning, I have ordered a set of fibre washers and a Viton gasket and will obtain a new sender from Revingtons.  I purchased a UV torch and am awaiting delivery of enough indicator to cover a full tank. I won't be using it on this occasion.  Am I right in thinking the torch won't detect fumes if no liquid is present?

Once again, my grateful thanks to all contributors for their invaluable input.

Best wishes     Willie

P1150171 ringed.jpg

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