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Hi Folks,

bit of an odd one here.

My local Scout group have a hut on church premises.It has been there for 63 years this coming January and the Scouts have been at this same church for 75 years this coming January.

Back in 2002 they had to start a lease with Westminster Diocese. in order to qualify for a National Lottery Grant

In Early 2020 the Scout leader found that the Priest or his assistant had broken into the hut to store food for the homeless.

When challenged the Priest said he couldn't find who had the key. There is a parish guide with ALL the information in.

During the Summer 2020 The parish priest made contact with the Scout leader to say that the lease had expired.

In fact it had expired in 2012 - eight years earlier. 

I spoke to the Group Scout leader last Saturday and he said that the Scouts/Guides had been told to get off parish premises by the end of Feb 2022.

The Parish Priest disputes the ownership of the scout hut. He believes it is church property. It was in fact paid for by the parents of the scouts back in 1959 and its upkeep has always been via the scouts.

So my question is regarding this expired Lease. Where do the Scouts stand can and should the lease be renewed.

Can they be turfed of the site that they have had for 75 years (the hut for 63 years)

 

 

Thanks Sue

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Any documents exist from way back when? 

There may be press cuttings from the original construction and opening that have a story and details, check the local paper's archives.

Alan

Edited by barkerwilliams
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Firstly check with the Land Registry to confirm that the Diocese has the freehold, and whether there any restrictions on the use of the land. Then if you don't have a copy of the lease, you should get hold of one from the Diocesan Registrar. The lease shoud make it clearer whether you have a right of renewal, and what can and cannot be done with the land.

The priest does not normally have formal control of church lands and buildings. That normally lies with the Diocese, and the Parochial Church Council for the parish are responsible to the Diocese for managing the lands and buildings.

It sounds like negotiating with the priest is a non starter. The Archdeacon has some powers and might be useful. 

Hope this helps.

Al

 

 

 

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Thank you Alan, Ian and Al for your help so far.

We will advise our Scout  group leader , he has said that the Area District Scout Committee have not waned to get involved.

It is a Roman Catholic Church and the Scout  leader is a Hindu who as a child ( and his SON ) Attended this Scout group.

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Hi Suzanne

I'm afraid my comments on the church inolvement are CofE, so may not apply.

On the scout front, the area commissioner is the one to help since you are looking to get technical advice.

Al

 

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Suzanne - its a shame the group signed up to an " agreement" in 2002 when they had already been in occupation of the site for over 40 years because that event effectively destroyed any rights that the Scout group may have built up over the previous 40 years - if they hadused the hut exclusively for that period and didn't pay any rent or have any conversations with anyone from the Church, they might have been able to claim legal title to the land outright under adverse possession laws.

But that's now history and can't be undone. From what you say, the group then entered into an " agreement" with supposedly the landowner in 2002 for 10 years - that probably was a "lease" as it was for a fixed term rather than a " Licence" which typically runs from year to year and can be much more easily terminated than a lease. The lease document will specify the terms under which it was granted and if it was acknowledged that the building belonged to the group, then what you should have been granted was a ground lease as the ground was all that the landlord had to grant an agreement on ( slight oversimplification without getting into lots of legalistic argument over tenants improvements etc) - I would have expected there to be some rent mentioned in the lease/agreement - was this ever demanded and/or paid? 

If it was a lease, then what happens at the end of it, should have been mentioned within it. However, the question to my mind is was the scout group a "Business Tenant" under the auspices of the various Landlord and Tenant Acts which effectively grant Business tenants  protection from eviction, except in a few cases, and confers rights on them to a new lease. I once dealt with a CCF hut on part of a pub site in similar circumstances, and they were deemed to be a business tenant.

If the scout group are a business tenant, then the fact that original term expired in 2012 is largely irrelevant as a business tenancy will legally continue ( holding over} after the expiry of the original lease until brought to an end by either the landlord or the tenant serving  notices on the other to bring the lease to an end and there are strict time limits which have to be adhered to. Landlords cannot simply bring a business tenancy to an end because it suits them - there are a few grounds they can do that for instance if they want the property for their own use (so that could be relevant )but the relationship between the landlord specified in the lease and "their use" is quite strictly interpreted so they cant use those grounds to secure possession for someone else. Similarly there are grounds to oppose a new lease ( note you can't terminate once the lease is running or holding over) if the site is wanted for their own redevelopment of the site - doesn't sound likely from what you described.

In the circumstances you describe, the scouts don't have to do anything if they don't want to apart from complying with the terms of the lease( pay rent- is there any whether demanded or not?) - as you describe it, the Priest is completely out of order and is arguably guilty of harassment so the scouts should tell him to go and take a running jump and respect their rights as legal tenants, because that's what they are. If they really wanted to protect themselves, they should consider serving appropriate Landlord and Tenant Act notices requesting a new lease and then that will force the Landlord to address all the issues

In the first instance, the Scouts need to find a really good Landlord and Tenant Surveyor who regularly represents  tenants to advise - don't go to a Solicitor at this point - be guided by the surveyor - the building issue is not an issue - its the Scouts and the Priest is trespassing and should be told as such.

The above is just my experience of dealing with many Landlord and tenant issues in my professional life, and represents my personal views and not in any shape, professional advice  - it should only be read  and considered by practising members of the club and is conditional on any members currently taking a sabbatical, coming back into the fold:o:o

Cheers Rich (QC!!!!)

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Disclaimer: I have not legal training

Question: If the Scouts can prove that the 'HUT' was provided by the Scouts and or supporters, then maybe they own the hut and lease the land. If they have to go in Feb 22 (as the Priest wants the HUT) then take the hut with them. Maybe the Priest won't be interested in the foundation slab !!  :huh:

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Thanks Richard that gives us a lot to go on.

Mike North, our first thoughts were the same as yours, a mysterious fire.
Our son had a much better thought as when he was a Scout here there were a lot of Irish parents who owned their own JCBs unfortunately that is no longer the case.

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1 hour ago, SuzanneH said:

Thanks Richard that gives us a lot to go on.

Mike North, our first thoughts were the same as yours, a mysterious fire.
Our son had a much better thought as when he was a Scout here there were a lot of Irish parents who owned their own JCBs unfortunately that is no longer the case.

If it was me I think I’d prefer to go with Richard’s  suggestions I’d also note all dates times of any approach by the priest or those acting on his behalf. Write down accurately everything said during personal conversations while fresh in your mind, or where possibly record verbal conversations. Keep all correspondence safe as this can help should you need to refer to it at a later date. 

Edited by Misfit
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10 hours ago, North London Mike said:

Disclaimer: I have not legal training

Question: If the Scouts can prove that the 'HUT' was provided by the Scouts and or supporters, then maybe they own the hut and lease the land. If they have to go in Feb 22 (as the Priest wants the HUT) then take the hut with them. Maybe the Priest won't be interested in the foundation slab !!  :huh:

Don't panic - even if the Priest was your landlord, and it doesn't sound like he is, I think it's extremely unlikely that anyone could get possession off the Scout Club in such a short time  - Covid rules were or maybe still are relevant which can slow down the possession route even more, but if you have got a lease ( and assuming the security of tenure provisions of the Landlord and Tenants Acts weren't excluded ( the lease document will say if they were), then as I recall, the landlord has to give at least 6 months notice of his intention not to renew the lease ( even though it's expired) AND he has to use the few appropriate grounds to do so - the tenant can serve a counter notice objecting saying they want to stay on and the courts will eventually decide if the opposing arguments can't be resolved.

To avoid costly professional fees, far better to start a civil dialogue with the Landlord ( not the Priest) making it clear what the future intentions of the Scouts re a new/continuing lease are and making it clear that they know what their legal rights are

Disclaimer as before - this is not a legal opinion , just my understanding of L&T law

Cheers Rich

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Fees?

Scout troops include the children of people from all walks of life.    Is there a Solicitor, or other pro.advisor as above among them?   They might be willing to provide advice, 'pro bono'?    You never know, a local firm might do so for the goodwill, especially if a town newspaper would report on it.      

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Dear Friends,

I have decided to return to the forum based primarily on your response to the help required by my Scout group and all advice freely given.

The Scout Group have spent nearly 2 years dragging their feet and getting nowhere.   

In the space of 5 days they have  found their copy of the 'lost' Lease agreement and are seeking a decent solicitor trained in lease law etc.

The Scout Group committee are now moving in the right direction.

This could not have been done without your help.  Many Many thanks

The Scout Association have been worse than useless. They received the lease renewal paperwork back in 2012 and simply forwarded it to the Scout Group Leader. This got filed under 'interesting' before finding the round filing bin.

So I realise that my little spat was a silly protest and have put that behind me.

 

Roger

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It’s just nice to see you back Roger

a nice Christmas present for the rest of us to have you back in the fold.

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Who'd have thought it? I never imagined this would happen.

Nevertheless, we shouldn't lose focus on helping the Scouts sort out the hut issue. It's good news that they've found the lease or agreement since that defines what should have happened and is the basis of what will happen. It should be a lot easier now.

Please keep us posted.

Edited by acaie
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Roger - welcome back - more than happy to help as far as I can along the future road - just remember to tell the scouts not to be intimidated and to make sure the priest and church know that you are legal tenants and as such have the right to peaceful enjoyment of the property so they should withdraw any illegal threats to vacate the property, otherwise it could be deemed as harassment and I'm sure the Church wouldn't want that publicity.

Also good idea as has already been suggested to get the local press and media on your side

Cheers Rich

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