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My recently restored long door TR2 came with a rebuilt engine that had a high port head and carbies. The engine has 87mm liners, a half race cam and runs 160 psi compression. Otherwise it is a stock engine. I ran the car with this head for 1200 miles. 

I then installed the restored low port head and carbies using a standard (cheap) composite gasket. I retorqued the head at 400 miles.

I have now done 1600 miles from the changeover to the low port head.

After a 100 mile outing on Wednesday, much of it on the freeway at 110-120 km/h, I checked the coolant and there was a layer of rusty coolant in the top of the radiator. The oil is clear and the coolant under the rust layer is normal. The coolant had not noticeably gone down on the drive.

I cleaned it out and took it for a very short run and it didn't reappear.

This afternoon I retorqued the head and when I got back from a good 10km drive including a couple of blasts to 5000rpm the rust layer has reappeared. 

It looks like I have a blown head gasket.

I have been told that with some modern gaskets I need to retorque the head regularly. I don't want to do that so am after a better solution.

Any ideas please and what gaskets do you recommend?

My other TR2 hasn't had the head moved since 1995. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

If you aren’t losing coolant and the engine temperature is staying within range, why would you have a blown head gasket?

Rgds Ian

+ 1

When you describe your latest fitted head gasket as “ standard ( cheap) composite gasket” do you mean a copper skinned gasket with fibre interior ? Is this an original ( old type) gasket or a new remade gasket ? 
The original old type copper gasket should take up to an 87mm piston and liner set without the gasket intruding into the bores which can sometimes cause problems.

As far as I know after an initial retorque the gaskets should be fine without continual retorquing. Admittedly after 3-4 years I might make a precautionary retorque not expecting much of a take up in the gasket, and I think that’s reasonable. 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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40 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

If you aren’t losing coolant and the engine temperature is staying within range, why would you have a blown head gasket?

Rgds Ian

Good question. Because gas is getting into the coolant and causing the rusty foam to occur. I expect you could see the gas bubbles in the coolant if the next wasn’t there.

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5 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

+ 1

When you describe your latest fitted head gasket as “ standard ( cheap) composite gasket” do you mean a copper skinned gasket with fibre interior ? Is this an original ( old type) gasket or a new remade gasket ? 
The original old type copper gasket should take up to an 87mm piston and liner set without the gasket intruding into the bores which can sometimes cause problems.

As far as I know after an initial retorque the gaskets should be fine without continual retorquing. Admittedly after 3-4 years I might retorque not expecting much of a take up in the gasket, and I think that’s reasonable. 

Mick Richards

Thanks Mick. Yes the traditional copper faced gasket. I was told by a reliable owner that they aren’t that good nowadays.

I set my torque wrench to 110 pds, the spec is 100-105, just to make sure I’m not under doing it.

A question, are the symptoms the car has only from a leaking head gasket. Could there be another cause.

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3 minutes ago, John McCormack said:

Thanks Mick. Yes the traditional copper faced gasket. I was told by a reliable owner that they aren’t that good nowadays.

I set my torque wrench to 110 pds, the spec is 100-105, just to make sure I’m not under doing it.

A question, are the symptoms the car has only from a leaking head gasket. Could there be another cause.

If its rust as you describe then thats not a head gasket, thats more likely silt deposits recirculating. When you say it was a restored head were all the waterways absolutely clean as thats highly likely (Being the only thing youve changed) where its come from.

Stuart.

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3 minutes ago, stuart said:

If its rust as you describe then thats not a head gasket, thats more likely silt deposits recirculating. When you say it was a restored head were all the waterways absolutely clean as thats highly likely (Being the only thing youve changed) where its come from.

Stuart.

Yes Stuart the head was cleaned in acid prior to the guides, valves etc. it did sit in the garage for a year or so but it was still very clean before installation.

The foaming rust buildup I do think is a result of gas leakage into the coolant. I believe the coolant does have bubbles coming up and will check more thoroughly.

After these comments I will drive the car a bit more to see what develops. I’ll get a good run in and check the plugs to see if coolant is getting into a cylinder and burning the plug white.

 

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10 minutes ago, stuart said:

If its rust as you describe then thats not a head gasket, thats more likely silt deposits recirculating. When you say it was a restored head were all the waterways absolutely clean as thats highly likely (Being the only thing youve changed) where its come from.

Stuart.

+1 on crud in the water ways being washed out.

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1 minute ago, John McCormack said:

Yes Stuart the head was cleaned in acid prior to the guides, valves etc. it did sit in the garage for a year or so but it was still very clean before installation.

The foaming rust buildup I do think is a result of gas leakage into the coolant. I believe the coolant does have bubbles coming up and will check more thoroughly.

After these comments I will drive the car a bit more to see what develops. I’ll get a good run in and check the plugs to see if coolant is getting into a cylinder and burning the plug white.

 

Quickest way to tell is to see if your local garage has a CO test kit, basically a container of coloured liquid that sits on the rad instead of the cap and it turns yellow with the presence of and exhaust gases.

Stuart.

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This is the type of thing you need

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COMBUSTION-LEAK-TESTER-KIT-CO2-PETROL-HEAD-GASKET-BLOCK-TEST-FLUID-BT-1-100ml-/274499432487?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

if you were closer you could borrow mine. 
 

(as any forum user can in the Cheshire stoke area)

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Thank you all. I’ve bought one on eBay. I’ll drive the car locally until it arrives.
If it doesn’t lose coolant or have any other blown head gasket symptoms I will test it with the kit. if it does I’ll have to take the head off, the kit will be handy in the future anyway.
I can’t see another cause for the rusty foam than combustion gases in the coolant. 
The symptoms have only started recently. If it was just gunge in the coolant it would have occurred earlier than 2800 miles after the car was put back in the road.

 

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I checked the spark plugs this morning. All are a nice tan colour, no sign of them being 'cleaned' by moisture in the combustion chamber.

I might be over reacting, I'll keep driving it and keep a close eye on the coolant and oil.

The CO2 kit will tell me one way or the other. It only cost $34, it will be very useful to all club members close to me.

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On 12/22/2021 at 12:12 AM, mikej said:

Assume you took the correct actions to secure the liners when removing the head. IF one slighlty moved it may still re-seat but release some crud from above the seat or where it is close to the head at the top.

MJ

I removed the head without disturbing the liners. The head was only off for a few minutes before I put the low port head on. I've done 1600 miles since the head swap.

I flushed the radiator and the engine as best I could (put water up through the bottom hose) and filled it up with new coolant

I took it for a 30km drive and again there is a rust film build up on the top of the coolant.

Clean the rust film off and the coolant appears clear, no oil in the coolant. The oil is clean and clear. It didn't use any coolant on this drive but probably need a longer drive to be sure. It didn't use any coolant previously either. The plugs are all a good colour.

I'm at a loss as to why it builds up a rusty foamy layer on the top of the coolant.

I am still concerned that there is a head gasket leak but even that theory doesn't seem right as there are no other symptoms and why would it cause rust to form in the coolant.

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6 hours ago, John McCormack said:

I removed the head without disturbing the liners. The head was only off for a few minutes before I put the low port head on. I've done 1600 miles since the head swap.

I flushed the radiator and the engine as best I could (put water up through the bottom hose) and filled it up with new coolant

I took it for a 30km drive and again there is a rust film build up on the top of the coolant.

Clean the rust film off and the coolant appears clear, no oil in the coolant. The oil is clean and clear. It didn't use any coolant on this drive but probably need a longer drive to be sure. It didn't use any coolant previously either. The plugs are all a good colour.

I'm at a loss as to why it builds up a rusty foamy layer on the top of the coolant.

I am still concerned that there is a head gasket leak but even that theory doesn't seem right as there are no other symptoms and why would it cause rust to form in the coolant.

Have you got a heater fitted?  have you disturbed it from its mountings or changed its hoses?  Is it working and has it been off then turned back on?  Could be sludge from the heater matrix.

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What did the block-tester fluid check say? I have found them very effective at detecting exhaust gases and means you can avoid any guesses and unnecessary work

.……. Andy 

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14 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Have you got a heater fitted?  have you disturbed it from its mountings or changed its hoses?  Is it working and has it been off then turned back on?  Could be sludge from the heater matrix.

Good suggestion. Yes it has an original heater which is switched off at the tap. I forgot to open it when I flushed the system.

I don't think that is it though. I haven't opened the tap for a couple of months.

Edited by John McCormack
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7 hours ago, AndyR100 said:

What did the block-tester fluid check say? I have found them very effective at detecting exhaust gases and means you can avoid any guesses and unnecessary work

.……. Andy 

It hasn't been delivered yet. I'll let the forum know when I use it

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Rather than the expense and trouble of changing a head gasket, has anyone used a "combustion leak tester"?   EG see: https://www.drheadgasket.co.uk/bt-3-combustion-leak-tester-high-accuracy-with-filter-combustion-leak-detector-block-sniff-tester-petrol-diesel-lpg

 

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5 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Rather than the expense and trouble of changing a head gasket, has anyone used a "combustion leak tester"?   EG see: https://www.drheadgasket.co.uk/bt-3-combustion-leak-tester-high-accuracy-with-filter-combustion-leak-detector-block-sniff-tester-petrol-diesel-lpg

 

Keep up John this was suggested a while ago. from post #9 on.

Stuart.

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6 hours ago, stuart said:

Keep up John this was suggested a while ago. from post #9 on.

Stuart.

Thank you Stuart.    And the response?   Not necessarily from the OP, but others.    I've never them, I'd be interested in experiences.

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12 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Thank you Stuart.    And the response?   Not necessarily from the OP, but others.    I've never them, I'd be interested in experiences.

I used the fluid John. Identified a head gasket issue on my car when I first bought it. 

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36 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Thank you Stuart.    And the response?   Not necessarily from the OP, but others.    I've never them, I'd be interested in experiences.

Yes, used many times - always diagnosed correctly.

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