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Not withstanding the decison on lapped cars passing, there is a lot of emotive argument here.      The race isn't over until the fat lady sings, or the chequered drops, but everyone seems to have expected Hamilton's Victory Parade.  Instead, they go on racing to the end.

When the Williams crashed, and the Pace Car was deployed,  Red Bull brought Verstappen in for fresh tyres.    Mercedes gambled on Hamiltons undoubted ability to  make old worn tyres, but his were Hard and  thirty laps old.   His talent was no match for the sheer grip in fresh, Soft tyres.    No robbery, no Trumpian steal, but good tactical decision vs. bad one.    No wonder Toto Wolff lost his cool!

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Edited by john.r.davies
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24 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Not withstanding the decison on lapped cars passing, there is a lot of emotive argument here.      The race isn't over until the fat lady sings, or the chequered drops, but everyone seems to have expected Hamilton's Victory Parade.  Instead, they go on racing to the end.

When the Williams crashed, and the Pace Car was deployed,  Red Bull brought Verstappen in for fresh tyres.    Mercedes gambled on Hamiltons undoubted ability to  make old worn tyres, but his were Hard and  thirty laps old.   His talent was no match for the sheer grip in fresh, Soft tyres.    No robbery, no Trumpian steal, but good tactical decision vs. bad one.    No wonder Toto Wolff lost his cool!

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+1

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1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

Not withstanding the decison on lapped cars passing, there is a lot of emotive argument here.      The race isn't over until the fat lady sings, or the chequered drops, but everyone seems to have expected Hamilton's Victory Parade.  Instead, they go on racing to the end.

When the Williams crashed, and the Pace Car was deployed,  Red Bull brought Verstappen in for fresh tyres.    Mercedes gambled on Hamiltons undoubted ability to  make old worn tyres, but his were Hard and  thirty laps old.   His talent was no match for the sheer grip in fresh, Soft tyres.    No robbery, no Trumpian steal, but good tactical decision vs. bad one.    No wonder Toto Wolff lost his cool!

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Tito Wolff probably lost his cool because his team had made a sound tactical decision based on the rules before Mike Masi decided to ignore them. Nothing to do with them making the wrong call. In the situation they found themselves in they had little alternative. And Christian Horner’s response to Masi’s original and swiftly changed decision supports the view that without the rules being changed MB would have won.

Rgds Ian

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37 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Tito Wolff probably lost his cool because his team had made a sound tactical decision based on the rules before Mike Masi decided to ignore them. Nothing to do with them making the wrong call. In the situation they found themselves in they had little alternative. And Christian Horner’s response to Masi’s original and swiftly changed decision supports the view that without the rules being changed MB would have won.

Rgds Ian

+1

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1 hour ago, Ian Vincent said:

Tito Wolff probably lost his cool because his team had made a sound tactical decision based on the rules before Mike Masi decided to ignore them. Nothing to do with them making the wrong call. In the situation they found themselves in they had little alternative. And Christian Horner’s response to Masi’s original and swiftly changed decision supports the view that without the rules being changed MB would have won.

Rgds Ian

Another +1 from me.

Nigel

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Ian said "Tito Wolff probably lost his cool because his team had made a sound tactical decision based on the rules before Mike Masi decided to ignore them" and several supported that view (?).

Which decision was that?   To change tyres under a pace car is completely legal.   Red Bull did, no need for a Race Director to judge it.   

 Merc didn't, kept their man out on old hard tyres, while the opposition had the best weapons for a sprint to the flag,  as the last lap proved!

Please be specific in your arguments, as I get the impression you're talking about something else!    If you want to argue about letting the lapped cars past, that's a different story.

JOhn

Edited by john.r.davies
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18 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Ian said "Tito Wolff probably lost his cool because his team had made a sound tactical decision based on the rules before Mike Masi decided to ignore them" and several supported that view (?).

Which decision was that?   To change tyres under a pace car is completely legal.   Red Bull did, no need for a Race Director to judge it.   

 Merc didn't, kept their man out on old hard tyres, while the opposition had the best weapons for a sprint to the flag,  as the last lap proved!

Please be specific in your arguments, as I get the impression you're talking about something else!    If you want to argue about letting the lapped cars past, that's a different story.

JOhn

Hamish and Nigel seem able to understand the point I’m making.

At the time MB made the decision not to bring LH in there was a rule about lapped cars. Mike Masi ignored that rule and at a stroke demolished LH’s chances of winning. Of course I’m arguing about letting the lapped cars past. 

Rgds Ian

Edited by Ian Vincent
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We have two threads on the same subject.      We may almost agree, when we agree on what we discuss!  See: https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/79022-f1-saudi-arabia/page/3/&tab=comments#comment-748582

John

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For me it’s only the lapped cars unlapping.

the incident happened and the car was in the barrier. 
 

Safety car went out 

MB and all had instruction that no lapped cars would be let through so MB decide to stay out as they had a 5 lapped car buffer between Lewis and max they also had an understanding of how long  it would take to clear the track then safety car would come in. All with limited laps left and decreasing. And having the lapped cars as a barrier.

the other option was that ALL the lapped cars HAVE to pass the leader and safety car and get out the way before the safety car came in BUT after the track was cleared up. 
all this would take laps that were ever decreasing to such an extent that it could be reasonable to judge the laps would run out.

 

however what happened was the no cars allowed to unlap decision was changed AND only certain nominated lapped cars could pass the leader and safety car. 
this was against the rule and took less time thus there was racing at the end.

 

you can’t choose the rules to follow or not. 
 

there is an engine cc rule do we ignore that one and turn a bind eye to the 5liter v10 in the back of the new lada team . No 

Edited by Hamish
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32 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Where's the rule that says ALL lapped cars must first pass the Pace car?

Both sky and c4 read it verbatim I don’t recall the clause. But that’s what the fuss is about. 
 

found the ruling. 
48.12

and the whole thing here

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_58_-_2021_abu_dhabi_grand_prix_-_decision_-_mercedes_protest_art._48.12.pdf
 

Edited by Hamish
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Seems Red Bull called the shots and won the day. No surprise there then.

Any does not mean all? It’s has in every other grand prix I can recall. So why change now? Whoops ..rhetorical question.

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1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

Where's the rule that says ALL lapped cars must first pass the Pace car?

From the link Hamish posted

 

 “...once the last lapped car has passed the leader
the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.”

 

The "last lapped car" would mean that all the lapped cars would have fulfill this requirement, not just a select few.

 

Simon

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I think MB will give up the legal actions now. 
the record books have already been written. 

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1 hour ago, Hamish said:

I think MB will give up the legal actions now. 
the record books have already been written. 

You may be right Hamish but the damage done to the sport will be long lasting when they see the money pot disappear 

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1 hour ago, ntc said:

. . . the damage done to the sport will be long lasting when they see the money pot disappear 

No chance of that Neil. Quite the opposite. 

This, from Motor1.com :

"Formula 1 and Motorsport Network unveil fan results of 2021 survey, by Nielsen Sports. Conducted in 15 languages and receiving feedback from 167,000 fans in 187 countries.

The sport is more popular than ever, with 90% of respondents believing F1 is the “Pinnacle of Motorsport”. 

58% of fans say the sport has the right balance of sport and entertainment (up from 39% vs. the 2017 survey results). This is especially felt by new entrants to the sport – 81% of those who started following F1 in the last 12 months.

Overall, the survey recorded the youngest and most diverse sample size to date with an average age of 32 (down 4 years from 2017), female participation in the survey nearly doubled to 18.3% (up from 10% in 2017), and student age responses increased to 26%, up from 18% in 2017.

Max Verstappen is regarded as the No. 1 driver, particularly amongst fans ages 25-34. Lando Norris is No. 2 and the highest-ranked driver amongst the female demographic.  Lewis Hamilton is No. 3 and the highest-ranked in the United Kingdom and amongst fans 35+ years old.  Daniel Riccardo is No. 4 and the highest-ranked in Australia, and No. 2 amongst female fans.

More than half of all fans (51%) are playing motorsports-specific video games, with 64% of those aged 16-34 as active motorsport gamers. New, younger audiences show growth: U.S. (50%), India (55%), China (58%), Mexico (45%); they also indicated that they have been following the sport for less than five years.

Twitter is the most used platform in social media use during race weekends. Instagram is the fastest-growing."

 

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1 hour ago, Deggers said:

No chance of that Neil. Quite the opposite. 

This, from Motor1.com :

"Formula 1 and Motorsport Network unveil fan results of 2021 survey, by Nielsen Sports. Conducted in 15 languages and receiving feedback from 167,000 fans in 187 countries. ... (etc)

Completely agree. F1 is mass entertainment. On Sunday the fans got a spectacular last-lap upset instead of a safety car finish. Then they got the bonus of a post-race stramash played out on social media with a chance for everyone to be an armchair steward (regardless of how much or little they know about the Sporting Regs). Did Maradona's 1986 Hand of God make fewer people in any country tune in to Italia 90? I'd fully expect the first F1 races of 2022 season will now get bigger TV audiences, not smaller. 

Now, FWIW from my personal armchair: my read of 39.12 is that the clearing-past of lapped cars and their reformation at the back of the field during any SC deployment was fairly obviously the intention of the rule as written, and it implies that the onus on the stewards to allow that to happen whenever safe/practicable regardless of the stage of the race - unless on the final lap. Applying that reg will, obviously, always potentially disadvantage to a leading car (as any SC deployment almost always does anyway by closing up the field). However that situation could be foreseen when the regs were written and all teams will have had their say on them. Very tough on Hamilton/MB, but that's motorsport, they'll have to suck it up until next season. 

Nigel :)

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