Immigrants drowned crossing the channel

[Kiwifrog]

It’s nice to see the warm glow of human kindness this thread is producing.
Maybe the refugees could be trained as truck drivers or other manual labour to replace the poles that have returned to Europe? 
 I have a friend in the Uk with a removal company and no matter how much he advertises he can’t find people willing to do removal work or extra truck drivers, even though he is prepared to pay a decent wage. Apparently the work is too hard.

[Harbottle]

2 hours ago, Kiwifrog said:

Maybe the refugees could be trained as truck drivers

And who will pay for that? There are plenty of people here who would like to be paid to train as truck drivers. The fact is you have to pay for training yourself for a heavy goods licence, And it is not cheap. Maybe in La belle France it is different and the government pays. I somehow doubt it.

Paul

[TorontoTim]

47 minutes ago, Harbottle said:

And who will pay for that? There are plenty of people here who would like to be paid to train as truck drivers. The fact is you have to pay for training yourself for a heavy goods licence, And it is not cheap. Maybe in La belle France it is different and the government pays. I somehow doubt it.

Paul

Seems to me that it would be sensible to have state funding, or at least support, to train for jobs and skills that the country needs. You could even treat them like student loans and have the funding paid off over time. 

If not, aand no-one can afford the training for jobs that are desperately needed then I think it's all a bit short-sighted, no?

Tim

[TorontoTim]

3 hours ago, Kiwifrog said:

It’s nice to see the warm glow of human kindness this thread is producing.

+1

[acaie]

13 hours ago, Kiwifrog said:

It’s nice to see the warm glow of human kindness this thread is producing.

And the way it has been extended to the children of Windrush immigrants.

Edited December 5, 2021 by acaie

[Bleednipple]

22 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

... Given that the reports of how much these illegal immigrants are paying to get across the channel (reported between £2500 and £7k each). In a leaky boat with about 50% chance of success, I would think that visiting an airline (visa not required, or even if trying to comply, why not try a vacation visa... freely given) and then visiting the immigration counter in the airport and making your asylum claim from there having had a nice flight and even a cup of coffee (not Ryanair then) included. Would show a more cost effective and comfortable way to enter the UK. ...

I'm sorry I'm really not sure if that was intended ironically, but in case anyone thinks it's in any way factually correct: No, it's not in any way possible for a refugee from (say) Syria or Sudan to just jump on a flight to the UK from France (Ryanair or any other). The airline would simply not allow them to board, because on arrival at the UK airport the airline would be fined £2,000 by the UK authorities for allowing an IDA - an inadequately documented arrival (ie one without a visa unless allowed visa-free travel by dint of the passport they hold). The airline would then have to fly the person back to the embarkation point, and deal with all the consequences.

A vacation visa to the UK is not "freely given". If you're a national of many countries it's virtually impossible to get such a visa, unless you a very special case and can convince the UK consular service that you're extremely unlikely to overstay a visa or make an asylum claim while you're here.

That's why refugees who find themselves in France have no other practical option, if they wish to reach the UK and seek asylum here, to risk drowning in the Channel. It makes no difference if they have brought their passport from Syria or Iraq or wherever or lost it or thrown it away, they simply can't reach the UK by any safe and legal route. 

Nigel

 

 

[Mick Forey]

Here is an interesting view from 2 years ago of how perceptions in the UK towards immigration have changed over the years: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47428515. Similar data shows that the trend has continued.

We have a few refugee families from Syria settled in our village. They were made to feel very welcome and were given lots of help by ordinary people, far more than the state did. The parents still speak only faltering English but the kids are amazing and very happy, now nobody is trying to drop bombs on them. Finding work was not a problem for the parents, who are integrating more all the time, becoming part of the village.

This country could and should do more to welcome genuine refugees.

Mick

[Bleednipple]

28 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

We have a few refugee families from Syria settled in our village. They were made to feel very welcome and were given lots of help by ordinary people, far more than the state did. The parents still speak only faltering English but the kids are amazing and very happy, now nobody is trying to drop bombs on them. Finding work was not a problem for the parents, who are integrating more all the time, becoming part of the village.

They will probably be families resettled directly from the Middle East (mostly from refugee camps) to UK under the government's Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme (VPRS) that ran from 2015 to last year. It's been quite a successful scheme for those who benefitted, many of whom were people known to have been victims of violence/.torture and/or with specific medical needs. Unlike people waiting for asylum to be granted, VPRS families are allowed to work in UK, although most initually find that very difficult due to initial language and other barriers.

I volunteer with a charity in the South East that's supported several VPRS families, as part of the much bigger caseload of refugees who have found their own ways into the UK. The scheme had a shaky start, largely because it was left to local authorities to accept people under the scheme and they typically didn't really comprehend how high-need those families would be. Some, including those with profound physical or mental disabilities and no English, need almost daily help for months with basics like how to get to hospital appointments. Local refugee charities stepped in who had the expertise and experience to support them, and have been granted funds through the LAs to help with that although it can still be very challenging for charity staff and volunteers being called out in the middle of the night when a family gets into difficulties.

A similar scheme is being set up to support 'selected' Afghan refugees who will be resettled directly into the UK, but as with the Syrian scheme the local arrangements are proving to be similarly disorganised, that's been our experience so far anyway.

Nigel

[Motorsport Mickey]

29 minutes ago, Bleednipple said:

 

 

 

You make my point for me Nigel..."That's why refugees who find themselves in France have no other practical option, if they wish to reach the UK and seek asylum here,".

Why should they ? what's wrong with France or any one of the other EU countries they've come through ? they are safe and according to the EU have individual superior rights endorsed to them, why not apply for asylum there ? learning a new language other than English is not such a big ask, indeed being already able to speak English is often quoted as a reason why immigrants wish to settle in Britain, and speaking English will already give them a common language across many of those countries travelled.

In the meantime, the rest of the indigenous UK population continues to struggle to obtain access to doctors within a reasonable time frame whilst the government tries to increase our taxes and/or obtain more funding to increase doctors and all other agencies staffing. 

If that seems to be lacking in "the milk of human kindness" when observed from 3,000 plus miles away, or even from 700 miles away in France where the continuing stream of illegal immigrants is being directed here...there...anywhere but don't stay in France, then I'll take my chance when regaled with this story at the pearly gates.   

To Al (posting as Acaie)

We forget that there were 12 Labour Home secretaries in between the Windrush arrival and the arrival of Mrs May. None of them or their governments ever thought of formalising the Windrush arrivals positions into the country (Roy Jenkins managed to ignore it twice ! during his 2 separate terms as Home Secretary). Obviously the various incompetents in charge of either party never considered how the Windrush positions had changed...and it didn't matter, as long as the Home secretary (of either party, there were 14 other Conservative Home Secretaries that screwed up also) continued to be incompetent, but just look what happened when the Home Secretary (Mrs May in this case), demanding that immigrants should have paperwork behaves as they should !

The Windrush case is a dead end, it proves nothing about how welcoming or "filled with the milk of human kindness " the UK is. But everything about the general incompetence of our civil service and government ministers of all parties, allowing a bad situation to get worse and then not making sensible decisions upon how the Windrush immigrants and their subsequent children were treated.

Mick Richards

[Peter Cobbold]

We in UK should bear in mind whenever proposing further immigration that UK imports 40% of its  food, and rising. At present this is not problematic. But immigration accelerates population growth and, along with the uncertainties of climate change impacting agricutulture in UK and globally , adding to our population is unwise. To date immigration has been largely driven by wars, but climate disasters are likely to drive far larger mass migrations. We in UK need to be aware we are vulnerable too. Generosity towards asylum seekers needs to be tempered by foresight of the existential threats we face.

[PodOne]

58 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

We in UK should bear in mind whenever proposing further immigration that UK imports 40% of its  food, and rising. At present this is not problematic. But immigration accelerates population growth and, along with the uncertainties of climate change impacting agricutulture in UK and globally , adding to our population is unwise. To date immigration has been largely driven by wars, but climate disasters are likely to drive far larger mass migrations. We in UK need to be aware we are vulnerable too. Generosity towards asylum seekers needs to be tempered by foresight of the existential threats we face.

+1. on all points.

The Uk has never been uncharitable far from it but there comes a time like now when we simply cannot absorb any more people with massive wants from a stinking pot of resources with different cultural beliefs or our own becomes (and some would argue is) being submerged as immigrants become imbedded and from within begin to alter the laws and use the very institutions to what they feel comfortable with. Charities should very mindful and concentrate on dealing with home grown needs from the money/taxes they are given by the folk already here who I suspect expect it spent in that way given a say. By placing immigrants in front of UK citizens and using the media to publicise what a marvellous things have being done when it comes to scarce housing/education resource and adding to health crisis will and is stoking up resentment like it or not survey or no survey its human nature- result social unrest, we are at such a tipping point. Let the rest EU come to the same conclusions the Poles have with EU backing, Germany is still on a guilt trip but its wearing thin given the massive numbers they have taken in while France as ever will pull the strings to get want suits it own political agenda.

A lot of the immigration problems are decades old and stem from the 1950's onward. Those politicians involved should be dishonoured for not thinking about the long term consequences. Instead we should have allowed entry on a work permits with no rights of residence for the individual or family unless on a points system the profession/occupation was in a long term short supply category of need eg nurse, doctor, engineer etc along with the retention of ID cards post war to ensure only legitimate people receive benefits and access to health care, interesting the French have them. It would also allow rapid repatriation no arguments when the benefits system etc denies access one more draw to the UK removed.

Or would the charities be gullible enough to expect more donations and aid to pay for this as well?  In the end its what's fair and the silent majority for fear of retribution and recrimination would I expect agree its not fair that we are expected to take more and more people in to a small land mass. Yes attitudes are hardening its to be expected given the circumstances. 

Andy

[Ian Vincent]

I never understand the arguments against ID cards.  Tony Blair was well on the way to introducing them and then chickened out for some reason.  I have a passport and a driving licence, why would I be worried about an ID card?  And the cost would be trivial alongside the millions wasted on the current mess that is immigration.

Rgds Ian

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ian Vincent

[Kiwifrog]

1 hour ago, PodOne said:

+1. on all points.

The Uk has never been uncharitable far from it but there comes a time like now when we simply cannot absorb any more people with massive wants from a stinking pot of resources with different cultural beliefs or our own becomes (and some would argue is) being submerged as immigrants become imbedded and from within begin to alter the laws and use the very institutions to what they feel comfortable with. Charities should very mindful and concentrate on dealing with home grown needs from the money/taxes they are given by the folk already here who I suspect expect it spent in that way given a say. By placing immigrants in front of UK citizens and using the media to publicise what a marvellous things have being done when it comes to scarce housing/education resource and adding to health crisis will and is stoking up resentment like it or not survey or no survey its human nature- result social unrest, we are at such a tipping point. Let the rest EU come to the same conclusions the Poles have with EU backing, Germany is still on a guilt trip but its wearing thin given the massive numbers they have taken in while France as ever will pull the strings to get want suits it own political agenda.

A lot of the immigration problems are decades old and stem from the 1950's onward. Those politicians involved should be dishonoured for not thinking about the long term consequences. Instead we should have allowed entry on a work permits with no rights of residence for the individual or family unless on a points system the profession/occupation was in a long term short supply category of need eg nurse, doctor, engineer etc along with the retention of ID cards post war to ensure only legitimate people receive benefits and access to health care, interesting the French have them. It would also allow rapid repatriation no arguments when the benefits system etc denies access one more draw to the UK removed.

Or would the charities be gullible enough to expect more donations and aid to pay for this as well?  In the end its what's fair and the silent majority for fear of retribution and recrimination would I expect agree its not fair that we are expected to take more and more people in to a small land mass. Yes attitudes are hardening its to be expected given the circumstances. 

Andy

Yep France is not doing enough for refugees but as a percentage of population they are doing more than the UK. What I don’t understand is how somehow the UKs problems all appear to be caused by the French. 
How can the UK complain that France is not controlling the UK borders when the whole mantra of Brexit was to “Take control of our own boarders“ which the UK did anyway even when it was in Europe as it was never part of Schengen 

I have spent most of my life as an Immigrant, my parents moved to NZ in the mid 70’s to escape a broken Britain with 3 day working weeks and rolling blackouts, at school I was that Pommy kid. When I arrived back in the UK I was a naturalized KIwi having people taking the piss out of my accent, I then worked for 3 years in Sweden which was quite a welcoming place, and then I moved to France with my French wife. I am an immigrant not a bloody expat. Why the brits or poms still seem to think they are a major player on the world stage still amazes me, and the fact that they seem to think all their problems are created by Jonny foreigner makes me want to weep.

back to the subject here is a list of countries with the percentage of their populations that are refugees 

 

 

B4FCDF36-F667-4131-8BBD-194E51F970B3.webp

[Mick Forey]

Well said Kiwifrog. We are all immigrants, it is only a matter of how long ago our ancestors moved to where we are now.  I find that chart very disturbing as both Belgium and Netherlands have a higher population density than the UK, yet they are doing far more than we are to help the most needy. I hope we have another VPRS type programme to avoid more refugees trying to cross the channel.

Mick

[PodOne]

I think most people are not bothered about the past but the here and now and that further immigration is not sustainable full stop other than to those who will add value. NZ and AUZ were all forced colonised among others by us when values were completely different so not comparable to today and let go on to independence. Yes agree we are not major player in a lot of ways. However we seem to be treated that way when it comes to helping others out as some moral debt after two world wars along with past empire troops and US I think we have done our bit helping "Jonny foreigner"and left the foundations that these countries now enjoy including France and the rest of Europe. As a result the UK was left almost bankrupt as a result and has never recovered if it had then the near forced emigration from the UK including children may not have being required. Besides who helped us post war? I seem to remember France fought tooth and nail to keep us out of the EU? Short memories some countries have which is a shame as we share a common heritage and shared stock.

By the way I have relatives in NZ, AUZ, Canada and South Africa who left in the 50s and 60's.

It's nothing to do with Jonny foreigner and numbers are irrelevant as a way of laying the guilt trap the smaller countries will pay the price in due course the UK is at a crossing point in its history. Just ask yourselves why these smaller high % countries might be? Could it be their politics now depend on it after all well imposed ours across the globe and are in healthy use with a few tweaks. NZ and AUZ have a massive land mass perhaps the displaced can all come to them? But perhaps not as the criteria for entry are tough and implemented hard while having hundreds of miles of open ocean to contend with make the journey a lot less appealing and then there's the sharks. Not 5.5 mile to the mid way finish line a quick phone call before you set off and a free ride in the wrong direction.

The French aren't controlling our borders they are failing along with the rest of the EU to defend their own and passing the problem to the UK as said before if they implemented their own laws there would be no people risking lives trying to cross the channel which is the narrowest point of the geographical divide between the two so its common sense to attempt the crossing here. Not seen any rocking up in Bridlington.

Andy

[SuzanneH]

3 hours ago, PodOne said:

+1. on all points.

The Uk has never been uncharitable far from it but there comes a time like now when we simply cannot absorb any more people with massive wants from a stinking pot of resources with different cultural beliefs or our own becomes (and some would argue is) being submerged as immigrants become imbedded and from within begin to alter the laws and use the very institutions to what they feel comfortable with. Charities should very mindful and concentrate on dealing with home grown needs from the money/taxes they are given by the folk already here who I suspect expect it spent in that way given a say. By placing immigrants in front of UK citizens and using the media to publicise what a marvellous things have being done when it comes to scarce housing/education resource and adding to health crisis will and is stoking up resentment like it or not survey or no survey its human nature- result social unrest, we are at such a tipping point. Let the rest EU come to the same conclusions the Poles have with EU backing, Germany is still on a guilt trip but its wearing thin given the massive numbers they have taken in while France as ever will pull the strings to get want suits it own political agenda.

A lot of the immigration problems are decades old and stem from the 1950's onward. Those politicians involved should be dishonoured for not thinking about the long term consequences. Instead we should have allowed entry on a work permits with no rights of residence for the individual or family unless on a points system the profession/occupation was in a long term short supply category of need eg nurse, doctor, engineer etc along with the retention of ID cards post war to ensure only legitimate people receive benefits and access to health care, interesting the French have them. It would also allow rapid repatriation no arguments when the benefits system etc denies access one more draw to the UK removed.

Or would the charities be gullible enough to expect more donations and aid to pay for this as well?  In the end its what's fair and the silent majority for fear of retribution and recrimination would I expect agree its not fair that we are expected to take more and more people in to a small land mass. Yes attitudes are hardening its to be expected given the circumstances. 

Andy

+1

[SuzanneH]

8 minutes ago, PodOne said:

I think most people are not bothered about the past but the here and now and that further immigration is not sustainable full stop other than to those who will add value. NZ and AUZ were all forced colonised among others by us when values were completely different so not comparable to today and let go on to independence. Yes agree we are not major player in a lot of ways. However we seem to be treated that way when it comes to helping others out as some moral debt after two world wars along with past empire troops and US I think we have done our bit helping "Jonny foreigner"and left the foundations that these countries now enjoy including France and the rest of Europe. As a result the UK was left almost bankrupt as a result and has never recovered if it had then the near forced emigration from the UK including children may not have being required. Besides who helped us post war? I seem to remember France fought tooth and nail to keep us out of the EU? Short memories some countries have which is a shame as we share a common heritage and shared stock.

By the way I have relatives in NZ, AUZ, Canada and South Africa who left in the 50s and 60's.

It's nothing to do with Jonny foreigner and numbers are irrelevant as a way of laying the guilt trap the smaller countries will pay the price in due course the UK is at a crossing point in its history. Just ask yourselves why these smaller high % countries might be? Could it be their politics now depend on it after all well imposed ours across the globe and are in healthy use with a few tweaks. NZ and AUZ have a massive land mass perhaps the displaced can all come to them? But perhaps not as the criteria for entry are tough and implemented hard while having hundreds of miles of open ocean to contend with make the journey a lot less appealing and then there's the sharks. Not 5.5 mile to the mid way finish line a quick phone call before you set off and a free ride in the wrong direction.

The French aren't controlling our borders they are failing along with the rest of the EU to defend their own and passing the problem to the UK as said before if they implemented their own laws there would be no people risking lives trying to cross the channel which is the narrowest point of the geographical divide between the two so its common sense to attempt the crossing here. Not seen any rocking up in Bridlington.

Andy

+1 ……………..and the last paragraph here was Rogers original point.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Be aware on your next continental tour.

 

Acknowledgement to Brockbank.

 

[JohnG]

On 12/5/2021 at 5:27 PM, Mick Forey said:

Well said Kiwifrog. We are all immigrants, it is only a matter of how long ago our ancestors moved to where we are now.  I find that chart very disturbing as both Belgium and Netherlands have a higher population density than the UK, yet they are doing far more than we are to help the most needy. I hope we have another VPRS type programme to avoid more refugees trying to cross the channel.

Mick

Can't agree

How can anyone be an immigrant if they were born here.

Take a look at a dictionary

 

If my ancestors came her from elsewhere, then they were the immigrants, not me.

 

Let's just remember, the UK should be seeing NO immigrants arriving via the EU.

The UK does so, because Eu member countries ignore EU regulations.

Then, the UK is lambasted by the EU and UK based bleeding heart liberals because some of us have the temerity to make the point.

 

I have NO objection to helping women, children and families, in fear of their lives.

I DO object to young unaccompanied economic migrants who throw their papers away and try to enter illegally.

[JohnG]

On 12/5/2021 at 6:46 PM, SuzanneH said:

+1 ……………..and the last paragraph here was Rogers original point.

 

Here, here.

[acaie]

6 minutes ago, JohnG said:

 

Here, here.

Surely hear hear?

[foster461]

41 minutes ago, JohnG said:

Can't agree

How can anyone be an immigrant if they were born here.

Take a look at a dictionary

 

If my ancestors came her from elsewhere, then they were the immigrants, not me.

 

Let's just remember, the UK should be seeing NO immigrants arriving via the EU.

The UK does so, because Eu member countries ignore EU regulations.

Then, the UK is lambasted by the EU and UK based bleeding heart liberals because some of us have the temerity to make the point.

 

I have NO objection to helping women, children and families, in fear of their lives.

I DO object to young unaccompanied economic migrants who throw their papers away and try to enter illegally.

The USA is often described as a nation of immigrants, usually as a reminder to the white nationalists and racists that want to keep brown people out and.or send them "home". Unless you are a native american you are either a direct immigrant like me or descended from immigrants fairly recently in historical terms. So all we are debating is when did you or your parents, grandparents etc get here. Americans will often proudly describe themselves in terms of their heritage, Irish, Polish etc. My wife is from Iowa and is half Irish, half Swedish. There are always issues with managing immigration so it does not overwhelm the country and its resources but my personal opinion is that immigrants are a net positive. How else would the UK national dish be chicken tikka masala ?

[JohnG]

1 hour ago, acaie said:

Surely hear hear?

[acaie]

14 hours ago, foster461 said:

my personal opinion is that immigrants are a net positive

In Scotland it is said that someone emigrating from Scotland to England increases the average IQ of both countries.

[john.r.davies]

Thank you, acaie.  As said by PG Wodehouse, "It is rarely difficult to distinguish a Scotsman from a ray of sunshine"