Immigrants drowned crossing the channel

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

as you know about 30 desperate immigrants died yesterday when their inflatable dinghy capsized.

These crossings have been going on for too many years now..

The French police sit in their cars and watch it all going on.

The immigrants come into France via other EU countries and very little is done to stop them.

They get to the Channel coast and there they stop till until they can get a boat.

The EU are doing nothing to stop them - absolutely NOTHING.

However on the Eastern borders of the EU - namely Poland - the EU are up in arms because Belarus are shepherding immigrants to the Ploish border  

The EU say that Belarus are using the migrants as a weapon against the West.

So aren't the French using the migrants as a weapon against us.  Macron needs to look impressive in order to get votes for his position.

XXXXX XXXX

The UK Gov't don't appear to have realised the comparison with Belarus.

XXXXX.

 

Roger

 

[john.r.davies]

Other European countries' net migration numbers, in 2020:

Germany  + 0.209 Million (Statistisches Bundesamt (Destatis))  (0.25% population growth)

Spain   + 0.204 million (Statista) (0.87% growth)

France + 0.087 million (Statista) (0.13% growth)

 

In the UK in 2020, the overall, 'net migration' figure was  0.034 million people, 0.05% growth, half that of France, and fifth that of Germany

Those are ALL immigrants, not just illegals, but I quote, from the House of Commons Library, published in September this year: 

In 2020, there were around 6 asylum applications for every 10,000 people living in the UK. Across the EU27 there were 11 asylum applications for every 10,000 people. When compared with EU countries, the UK ranked 14th out of the individual countries in terms of the number of asylum applications per capita.   https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

It is disgraceful, and distressing that people continue to try and reach the UK illegally by such dangerous means, aided by criminals who prey on them.   The scale of the problem (not its morality) is shown by the above to be vastly less than the media and political interest implies, and vastly less than it was in the past:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/united-kingdom-shift-immigration-interrupted-brexit-pandemic?gclid=CjwKCAiAqIKNBhAIEiwAu_ZLDtBQMAV3mwZo3jmC0v5Qa-NrQBPMia0htLaaaEE_hz7K_INYq9LBJhoCdiIQAvD_BwE

 

 

 

[John Morrison]

Roger you have PM

[Misfit]

[john.r.davies]

Misfit,  please explain what point you wished to make using the data on populations and land area?

John

[Misfit]

Don’t read anything into my feelings regarding immigration to UK

[PodOne]

Bottom line the UK is full we struggle to deal with the current levels of deprivation never mind taking more people to sort out leading to less and less to go round. We can't afford it, the EU can't afford it and the Poles have the right idea its tough love. I'd be happy to help these folk in there own countries of origin but they need to get a grip of their own problems and limit the population as to what the land will carry without destroying the environment. Second would be for the West, and the Communist block stop supplying arms for proxy wars which is a driver for immigration and poverty.

For me population density equates to; "too many donkeys in the field and they all starve to death". The planet simply has too many people and its the elephant in the room that none of the politicians dare talk about for fear of recrimination. As a country we are a net importer of food whereas we should be neutral or do we want rationing the debate is already here with regard to reducing meat intake and a plant based diet; yuk.

Who remembers the Star Trek episode where Kirk was wooed with a young woman just so he could pass on a few germs to pass on to the population outside the closed windows who where crowded together so tight there was no more room on the planet and the food was at its limits. I for one hope science avoids this scenario as the more you push differing peoples together the more they will fight for what's left.

As it is its nearly impossible to go anywhere in the UK and not constantly run into people all chasing a bit of peace and quiet. The very thing we all need and seek we will destroy simply due to the unfettered fecundity of the human race.

Andy

[TorontoTim]

I am aware that I am watching this from a considerable distance, but my over-riding thought is this:

Wherever these people are coming from and whatever is driving them to leave their homes and find a way across a continent (at least) must be pretty harrowing compared to our lives; given that, it is totally and utterly unacceptable that the greatest peril they face is travelling between two rich, first-world countries. 

If the EU, France and the UK can't keep them safe by the time they get here, then we seriously need to look at ourselves and our governments and ask what on earth is wrong with this picture and how do we fix it.

Climate change is going to make this more common, so we'd better find a way to get used to it and keep people alive. 

[Z320]

Some of you might know the movie "Elysium" with Matt Damon and Jody Foster?

Europe is "Elysium" for this refugees, I cannot be angry with them or about what they want.

 

[john.r.davies]

Good analogy, Z320.     Real life refugees/asylum seekers/migrants cross some tremendous obstacles on land and the Channel must appear trivial by comparison to the Mediterranean.    Two bodies have been found, on the coasts of the Netherlands and Norway (!), in wet suits, bought in Calais, so some believe they can SWIM across!   But the migrants have reached 'Elysium' by then, and many are satisfied with Germany or France.    What pressure drives on those who risk the crossing?   Is it that they know English?  The gastarbeiter came to Germany in the '50s and '60s and there are four million Germans today who are their families, so surely language isn't the pressure?   Stories of lavish benefits for asylum seekers persist in the UK's red-top press, but £5.60 a week isn't lavish, and those already in the UK can tell their families at home how they are living.    Some will have family already in the UK - is that what drags them on?

JOhn

 

[Ian Vincent]

I suspect it is a combination of factors; the language, the lack of ID cards, the NHS free at the poiunt of delivery, the size of our black market economy and finally friends/family as a result of the British Empire.  All of these contribute.

As has already been said many times, population growth is the driver and until that is brought under control - and don't ask me how that can be done - things will only get worse.  Oh and it isn't helped by world wide communications that enable people who live in these third world countries to see the first world luxuries that most of us enjoy.

Rgds Ian

[Z320]

Hi John,

I’m a civil engineer and on my construction sites I newly have to work with craftsman from Poland.

They don’t speek German but English because they worked many years at the UK. So I can communicate with them.

I asked them why they are no longer at the UK, and 3 times I have been told:

less money for the same job and less respect from the UKs for their work and situation.

Well, in my opinion they should deserve more respect at Germany, but what they get seams to be more than at the UK…..

The family of the Indian wife of a business partner of mine moved for the same reason from the UK to Bremen / Germany. 

So I don't know what all this refugees hope to get at the UK?

Ciao, Marco

Edited November 29, 2021 by Z320

[Ian Vincent]

1 hour ago, Z320 said:

Hi John,

I’m a civil engineer and on my construction sites I newly have to work with craftsman from Poland.

They don’t speek German but English because they worked many years at the UK. So I can communicate with them.

I asked them why they are no longer at the UK, and 3 times I have been told:

less money for the same job and less respect from the UKs for their work and situation.

Well, in my opinion they should deserve more respect at Germany, but what they get seams to be more than at the UK…..

The family of the Indian wife of a business partner of mine moved for the same reason from the UK to Bremen / Germany. 

So I don't know what all this refugees hope to get at the UK?

Ciao, Marco

Hi Marco,

I am a retired civil engineer.  It is a recognised fact that engineers in general are not as respected in the UK as they are in other European countries.  In my view it is one of the factors responsible for the demise of UK manufacturing.  We are becoming a low wage, low skill economy.

Rgds Ian

[john.r.davies]

I'm not an engineer, but I gained a degree in the subject after retiring, because of my motoring interest.   Never used it for employment, but I sympathise, Ian, and see what you mean Marco.      Friends equate my degree with work as a technician or fitter, not as  professional.     I know that my co-students have got work at low levels in the industry (you have to start somewhere) but can never hope to earn as much as I did in a 'classical' profession through progression and experience.    

John

Edited November 29, 2021 by john.r.davies

[Charlie D]

I left school at sixteen (1966)  with a hand full of  “O” levels and never had any inclination to further my education in order to improve my employment chances. I just wanted to get on with life and have fun.  5 years later I was fixing Univac 1050 computers on USAF bases all over Europe, and earning fantastic tax free money. There were about 3 of us “Wandering engineers ” all from a similar background. (Left school at 16 – no further education)

When we joined Univac the American boss told us all:

 “If you expect a fancy title like ‘ Senior Engineer’ then go and find a job elsewhere.
We need people who can do the job. If you can do the job, fine, but if you make more than one mistake a year, then we fire you.”
He wasn’t joking. It meant that every time you went out to sort out a problem you were crapping yourself.

I never bothered with further education, but I’ve had a hell of a lot of fun and adventure in my life. (And, sometimes, earned a fair bit of money.) If people did not respect me because I was not educated then that was their problem, as far as I was concerned.

I’ve never fully understood the term “Professional”. Surely, if you earn money for doing something then you are a “Professional”.
Same with the term “Engineer”. Some people claim that to be an “Engineer” you have to have a degree.
Odd that, because the Oxford dictionary states that an Engineer is a person who works on engines.

But then again, of the “O” levels I got, English language was not one of them. So maybe I‘ve never read the words properly.

Charlie.

[Z320]

Sorry folks,

I‘m talking about the respect somebody from abroad (craftsman or refugee) gets at the UK or Germany.

And in my opinion in both countries this is not very much.

 

[Charlie D]

Marco,

 

Later in the 1970’s I worked for EMI, installing and fixing brain and body scanners.
I worked in various countries and had to deal face to face with brain surgeons quite often.
Something that I noticed was that, in general, the British doctors tended to be quite aloof when talking to the “Bloke who came to fix his scanner”. The German doctors, on the other hand, were welcoming, often inviting out for dinner and generally being pleasant to us.

On several occasions, at the end of an installation, the German doctors would give us a little gift. (Usually 200 Marlborough cigarettes and a quality cigarette lighter.!!! The world was different in the 1970’s..)

We never got a single thing from the British doctors.

Charlie

[ntc]

The French have done nothing to stop them and walked away when I was at a ferry port two years ago they was breaking into motor homes and caravans and despite showing the police they left it to the owners and others too remove them.

[Alfrom]

Don't think you're quite right there Neil. the French police have arrested around 500 smugglers and stopped around 1500 boat launches during the past 3 months.  No, I am not condoning inactivity by any enforcement agency.

The thing that really annoys me is the reliance on the RNLI, a volunteer charity organisation.It was reported recently that when it becomes apparent there is a small boat containing illegal immigrants in UK waters, the Coastguard usually call on the RNLI first because the Border Force always seem to be 'out of working hours' and cannot go to sea.  Perhaps Boris should spend a few pounds making sure the country has the resources required to take control of our borders in the way he wants.  Too late now but it would have been easier to return illegals to mainland Europe had Brexit not happened.

There is a lot of disinformation, not to say propaganda, going on around this whole topic.  And as for the comments about Macron and next year's election do you believe that there  is no posturing going on with our own Government?  Anytime the Government gets into problems within the UK (and there have been quite a few in recent weeks, don't you think?), there is an immediate outcry against something (anything!) to do with France.  If storm Arwen had approached from the South, I am sure the bad weather would have been blamed on France.

Sorry to go on about this but I do believe that a dislike of France is so ingrained in England that I am sure there must be a GCSE in the subject.

[ntc]

Can only say what I and others saw with our own eyes I even recorded it on my phone 

[Alfrom]

I don't have a problem with that Niel.

and looking elsewhere on the Forum, starting with Roger H's farewell (very much regretted for many reasons), I'll shut up now as I don't want to seriously upset a sensitive Forum reader on what is a really complex subject about which we can all have strong opinions based unfortunately on the biased and incomplete reporting we get from all areas of the media, coloured of course by our own backgrounds - you can guess mine from the name (although I've lived in the UK for more than 70 years).

[Alfrom]

Apologies if I have not spelled the name correctly, I believe there are several common variations on the name, largely dependant upon the origins of the family. 

[Charlie D]

41 minutes ago, Alfrom said:

...a dislike of France is so ingrained in England...

Until you drive a TR down French country roads.

Then you love the place.

"At the age of 37 she realised she'd never drive through Paris, in a TR ,with the warm wind in her hair."

(Ballad of Lucy Jordan.)

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

[Z320]

Boris could built a wall along the coast at France - and let the French pay for it!

Don’t tell him this idea, he will adopt my bad influence and demand that in about ….2 weeks?

[PodOne]

7 hours ago, Ian Vincent said:

Hi Marco,

I am a retired civil engineer.  It is a recognised fact that engineers in general are not as respected in the UK as they are in other European countries.  In my view it is one of the factors responsible for the demise of UK manufacturing.  We are becoming a low wage, low skill economy.

Rgds Ian

Hi Marco

Totally agree. Engineer in Germany often leads to a Doctorate along with the respect it deserves while here in the UK they are taken for granted and given no recognition and seen as superfluous to the economy not the wealth generators they are as in Germany. As such the government here should push the younger generations down this route to rejuvenate the UK manufacturing base and cut the reliance on imports. The low wage black market economy is massive and immigrants all to willingly seem to fall into this while gaining all the other free UK benefits when issued with a national insurance number. They are not free and are paid for by the 20% of the legitimate UK tax payers. Hopefully the move away from cash to electronic payment makes traceability a reality and HMRC should be able to crack down hard on black market.

2 hours ago, Alfrom said:

Sorry to go on about this but I do believe that a dislike of France is so ingrained in England that I am sure there must be a GCSE in the subject.

Very true we ruled 50% of France for around 400 years and they never forgave us and are naturally the traditional enemy!

Andy