keith1948 Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 Just had a look at cool energy units. About 50-60db noise levels. The heat exchanger unit needs to be properly installed outside somewhere with proper foundations and away from trees etc and protected to some extent from the weather. Apart from the actual heat exchanger unit you have a buffer tank that is about 1/2 metre diameter and 1 metre or so high. So have to find room in the house for that - it is bigger than our gas boiler so can't go in that space. There is also a need for a condensate drain which might be a problem if it produces more than the gas boiler. The power requirements means we would have to contact our electricity supplier to increase the supply to the house. The controls are not simple by any means so beyond DIY I would have thought. So not an easy fix for us. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 Are there "window box" heat pumps that work like air-con units, that pump warmed air around a single room rather than cold. A reversible design would be great for cooling in heat waves. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 Looks like it Peter: https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_en/product/fz-super-compact-r32/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 The point that you need to remember is they run at low temperature to be effective and must run constant put one on timer and watch your money burn and big downside is it is too expensive to open the windows for ventilation excellent for breeding viruses Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 The indoor fans are quiet, but the external compressor makes a din: 60db(A). http://www.panasonicproclub.com/uploads/GB/catalogues/PUK_AQ_J_GEN_MONOBLOC_HP_20.pdf https://decibelpro.app/blog/how-loud-is-60-db-compared-to-other-volumes/ That's deafening at night where I live, nearest neighbours 1/4 mile and single track road 1/2 mile. And as Neil says the cost of electricty is considerable running 5kW 24/7. And I doubt there will be any off-peak cheap power, with all those ecars refuelliing at night. Looks like my best option is: keeping heating minimal ( topnotch interior insulation, draft proofing), with a variety of heating options (smokeless, logs, calor gas for when the grid fails, and oil for when it works) and extensive solar pv for sunny-season hot water and large battery to power most needs. Re-locate freezer, fridges, washers etc in/near main kitchen/living space to capture thier waste heat. And let most rooms run cold in winter, using radiant heater only when occupied. And the grandsons can plant a couple of acres of willow coppice, looks like they might be needing it. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 Just drop a coil in that steam Peter and your sorted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 1 hour ago, ntc said: Just drop a coil in that steam Peter and your sorted Hi Neil, the stream is not reliable, I've seen it dry up in February. But we could dig a small lake and bury pipes under it. That should stay above 4C even in coldest winter. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said: Hi Neil, the stream is not reliable, I've seen it dry up in February. But we could dig a small lake and bury pipes under it. That should stay above 4C even in coldest winter. Peter The ground under the stream should stay about 12c so you will be adding 6 cheap heating Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 23, 2021 Report Share Posted October 23, 2021 3 hours ago, ntc said: The ground under the stream should stay about 12c so you will be adding 6 cheap heating Tks Neil, I'll measure it this winter. 12C would give an excellent CoP. Burying the pipe will be a challenge the closest stream bed is glacial till, full of rocks, about 30deg slope and inaccessible to machines, mostly. But well worth me investigating, thanks ! Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuzanneH Posted October 24, 2021 Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted October 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 Was talking to a friends mate who runs his own heating company and his reaction was not to worry as the major boiler manufactures had been advised by governments here and else where to simply make the boilers compatible to burn a mixture of methane and hydrogen as from next year. If true it means the powers that be know in reality heat pumps for a large majority of people are simply impractical and that there has to be a plan B. Also seems strange that gas network companies seem quite on their impending doom do they know something we don't? Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 24, 2021 Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 Hi Peter, about batteries: When I installed my solar panels (20x310 Wp), I looked into the battery option too, they are commercially available. It appeared a 6 kWh battery, which would not even provide one day of electricity for our house hold would cost the same as the PV installation, around 5.5 kEuro at that time. And in the winter the PV installation would not be able to recharge them during day light hrs, not on sunny days and certainly not on rainy or clouded days.. Example: December 2020: 60 kWh generation, over the entire month. So I did not see this as a viable (economical) option. Cheers, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted October 24, 2021 Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 Hi Waldi, I agree. I looked into a 13kWh Tesla Powerwall, even got somebody to do a house survey to get the installation costs about right. Even with zero cost of money, buying low cost overnight electricity during winter, 100% solar during the summer, the payback period was about 40 years, beyond the life of the battery. Cost of batteries is falling but the prices are not. Need more competition. In addition, in the UK, VAT is levied at 20% on home batteries so the government is not acting consistent with the talking. No surprise there. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted October 24, 2021 Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 Hi Mick, no surprise he? For those considering a reduction in oil / coal / gas consumption an air to air heat pump, which can also be an airco during the hot summer days, may be a good solution. The energyconsumption of a 5 kW (thermal)capacity unit will be maximum 1.5 kWh electricity, and annual consumption will be 1000-2000 kWh, based on usage. Disadvantages are (some) noise, less comfortable compared to radiators and certainly floor heating, and an extra piece of equipment to maintain. Food for thought. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 24, 2021 Report Share Posted October 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Waldi said: Hi Peter, about batteries: When I installed my solar panels (20x310 Wp), I looked into the battery option too, they are commercially available. It appeared a 6 kWh battery, which would not even provide one day of electricity for our house hold would cost the same as the PV installation, around 5.5 kEuro at that time. And in the winter the PV installation would not be able to recharge them during day light hrs, not on sunny days and certainly not on rainy or clouded days.. Example: December 2020: 60 kWh generation, over the entire month. So I did not see this as a viable (economical) option. Cheers, Waldi Waldi, In winter, yes, not a viable way to eliminate use of grid power. But in sunnier months a battery might be cost effective, depending upon cost of grid power. I also need to consider grid reliability as our water supply is from our own borehole. A battery could be useful, even if it had to be chagred form the grid, to keep the water flowing in winter blackouts. Maybe an e-car battery can be used. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 3:07 PM, ntc said: they run at low temperature to be effective and must run constant Neil, I can see that running the heat pump continuously means the water outlet temperature will be lowest (in heating mode) and therefore the COP will be highest - the heat pump will be operating at its best efficiency. But as the house reaches its target temperature the energy required will taper to to some figure or other. So how does the heat pump reduce the energy drawn from the mains in order to achieve the required output temperature (35'C or whatever) following the demand? Either the compressor runs intermittently, or runs more slowly if it has variable speed drive. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 4:19 PM, Peter Cobbold said: The indoor fans are quiet, but the external compressor makes a din: 60db(A). http://www.panasonicproclub.com/uploads/GB/catalogues/PUK_AQ_J_GEN_MONOBLOC_HP_20.pdf https://decibelpro.app/blog/how-loud-is-60-db-compared-to-other-volumes/ That's deafening at night where I live, nearest neighbours 1/4 mile and single track road 1/2 mile. Peter, I agree that 60dB at 1m or whatever would be too loud - especially in a rural environment. But Panasonic are quoting Sound Power Level (power in Watts, often written as "SWL") - a theoretical level to which you can apply your own situation (distance, reflections, etc.) to get Sound Pressure Level (SPL) which is what you actually hear. The very useful guide in your second link gives SPL figures. That Panasonic 60dB SWL is likely to be in the region of 45dB SPL at 1-metre (taken from a Mitsubishi Ecodan brochure) which is a much more reasonable sound level, though whether you find that acceptable or too loud will vary from one individual to another. Cheers, Richard PS: Having worked occasionally with sound in my career, I was familiar with SPL but didn't actually know what Sound Power / SWL was, so I had to look it up. See Sound Pressure and Sound Power - what's the difference? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Spit_2.5PI said: Peter, I agree that 60dB at 1m or whatever would be too loud - especially in a rural environment. But Panasonic are quoting Sound Power Level (power in Watts, often written as "SWL") - a theoretical level to which you can apply your own situation (distance, reflections, etc.) to get Sound Pressure Level (SPL) which is what you actually hear. The very useful guide in your second link gives SPL figures. That Panasonic 60dB SWL is likely to be in the region of 45dB SPL at 1-metre (taken from a Mitsubishi Ecodan brochure) which is a much more reasonable sound level, though whether you find that acceptable or too loud will vary from one individual to another. Cheers, Richard PS: Having worked occasionally with sound in my career, I was familiar with SPL but didn't actually know what Sound Power / SWL was, so I had to look it up. See Sound Pressure and Sound Power - what's the difference? Thanks Richard, it's more complicated than I realised. It's the nightime level that would matter and as heat pumps are supposed to work 24/7 noise is likely to be a much more important consideration than central heating noise, which is off at night. Keeping the pump as far from bedrooms as possible seems a good idea. Sound propagation is strange, we can hear but not see a 1.5MW wind turbine on a hill 900m south of us. Most of the time it is inaudible but when the wind comes form the south we hear the thump of the blades inside the house. Apparently low frequencies diffract downwards behind the blades,ie downwind, enough for sound to bend down ca 500 feet into the valley bottom where we live. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) Interesting thread! i’m just looking at new boilers as my 30+ year old Baxi has died, for about the 10th time ! these old boilers can be repaired forever it seems but i no longer have a local expert available so am thinking of having a quality new boiler installed my builder neighbour recommended Viessman but the trusted installer recommended Baxi, they offer a 10 year parts and labour warranty so i’ll likey go with that. steve Edited October 25, 2021 by Steves_TR6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 Viessmann are excellent - when they work. Like many, they have gone down the sophisticated electronic route, which means that simple souls like me are incapable of repairing let alone servicing them - and I might add - of understanding how they work. We installed a Viessman condensation boiler some 7 years ago and the fuel saving (lpg) has to be seen to be believed - about 30%. BUT - if modern electronics offer me the possibilty of choosing the temperature of my choice in my living quarters then I expect it to do just that, which it used to do but doesn’t anymore. In spite of fancy sensors outside and inside the house there is always a variation of 1 or 2° from what I want. I am having a long running battle with the local agent. So stick with your non electronic Baxi if you can!! james Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 25, 2021 Report Share Posted October 25, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 4:19 PM, Peter Cobbold said: The indoor fans are quiet, but the external compressor makes a din: 60db(A). http://www.panasonicproclub.com/uploads/GB/catalogues/PUK_AQ_J_GEN_MONOBLOC_HP_20.pdf https://decibelpro.app/blog/how-loud-is-60-db-compared-to-other-volumes/ That's deafening at night where I live, nearest neighbours 1/4 mile and single track road 1/2 mile. And as Neil says the cost of electricty is considerable running 5kW 24/7. And I doubt there will be any off-peak cheap power, with all those ecars refuelliing at night. Looks like my best option is: keeping heating minimal ( topnotch interior insulation, draft proofing), with a variety of heating options (smokeless, logs, calor gas for when the grid fails, and oil for when it works) and extensive solar pv for sunny-season hot water and large battery to power most needs. Re-locate freezer, fridges, washers etc in/near main kitchen/living space to capture thier waste heat. And let most rooms run cold in winter, using radiant heater only when occupied. And the grandsons can plant a couple of acres of willow coppice, looks like they might be needing it. Peter Peter a man of your calibre will be able to get your head around acoustics! It was my worst nightmare equations. As it’s LOG10 however, there is good guidance on this noise rating of equipment and the likelihood of disturbance. try and find the latest BS4142 guidance (2014 or 2019 ?) rule of thumb you need the equipment noise source as close to background noise level or below. 10dB above and it’s a big issue. Add in any tonal element or cyclical ( tripping on and off) you can also look at BS8233 it allow you to work out what you need. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 26, 2021 Report Share Posted October 26, 2021 11 hours ago, Hamish said: Peter a man of your calibre will be able to get your head around acoustics! It was my worst nightmare equations. As it’s LOG10 however, there is good guidance on this noise rating of equipment and the likelihood of disturbance. try and find the latest BS4142 guidance (2014 or 2019 ?) rule of thumb you need the equipment noise source as close to background noise level or below. 10dB above and it’s a big issue. Add in any tonal element or cyclical ( tripping on and off) you can also look at BS8233 it allow you to work out what you need. Thanks Hamish, noise is important to me so I shall certainly assess specs of heat pumps diligently. The rumble from a central heating pump seems to propagate from one end of the house to the other, I guess along the pipes. One more uncertainty in a changing world.. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted October 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2021 On 10/25/2021 at 4:26 PM, Steves_TR6 said: Interesting thread! i’m just looking at new boilers as my 30+ year old Baxi has died, for about the 10th time ! these old boilers can be repaired forever it seems but i no longer have a local expert available so am thinking of having a quality new boiler installed my builder neighbour recommended Viessman but the trusted installer recommended Baxi, they offer a 10 year parts and labour warranty so i’ll likey go with that. steve Hi Steve Worcester Bosch or Vallient think they are doing between 7-10 year guarantees. My Bosch is nearly 10 years old no issues (fingers crossed!). Baxi used to be good with a cast iron heat exchange the newer boilers now make extensive use of Ali and plastic internals so I expect 15 years will be a good innings. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hawk Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) My Vaillant boiler was 25 years old and still going strong when I replaced it a couple of years ago ... reason being that parts were no longer available and British Gas were offering stupid deals (almost cost and 0% finance). I was told by a number of fitters that either Vaillant or Worcester Bosch are the best....and we opted for WB as it meant minimal changes to pipework and filled te gap of teh old boiler best. And it came with a 10 year warranty IIRC I reckon we are saving approx £10 a month due it being more efficient. . Edited October 28, 2021 by Hawk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 We have no gas in this village so it's oil or bottle gas. Our oil boiler is now 30 years old and runs great providing we don't turn it off, through the summer it fires up once a day to heat the hot water even when we are away on holiday. If we don't do this the thing refuses to start and it's always an electrical component that has failed. Being so old parts are scarce but fortunately the boiler man has scavenged a stock of parts from boilers that have been replaced. George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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