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E5 Protection Grade Fuel


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Good Morning All,

Would it be possible for anyone to advise if they have taken steps to mitigate the use of E10 fuel in their TR, or any other 'Classic'.

Although there have been government assurances that E5 fuel shall be available until 2025, I am sceptical if this shall actually be the case. Already I have found difficulty in obtaining E5, not all filling stations stock it and those that do do not always have it in stock. Prior to the current 'crisis' I ended up making a 50-mile jaunt just to find E5.

Pretty much all of the fuel for Scotland, Northern Ireland and parts of northern England, comes from the Ineos Refinery in Grangemouth and given that there could be as few as around 50,000 vehicles requiring E5 in Scotland, unless it is deemed profitable there is a fair chance that E5 could be abandoned well before 2025.

I have contacted several companies but thus far not one of them has been able to confirm that they can, or have plans to, supply a comprehensive E10 compatible kit, unless anyone knows anything to the contrary. Sourcing individual items from various suppliers may be the only, if time consuming, option. Frost are advertising an additive which negates the effects of E10, but as far as I am aware there is not a tried and tested additive available. CMC are offering an E10 'Proof' modification for Jaguars, but it is a workshop fit only, not a diy kit.

Thanks for any thoughts or information.

Regards,

Cliff

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1 minute ago, Ecosse said:

Good Morning All,

. CMC are offering an E10 'Proof' modification for Jaguars, but it is a workshop fit only, not a diy kit.

 

Regards,

Cliff

Who are CMC and what do they modify?

Stuart.

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Hello Stuart,

CMC are Classic Motor Cars, a 'high-end' restoration company in Wales who do a lot of work on Jaguars. They are offering a complete upgrade of the fuel system to make it E10 compatible, exactly what it includes I do not know, but I suspect all fuel lines, seals and gaskets and probably floats for carbs and tank sensors.

Regards,

Cliff

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A few of the guys in the series 1 Land rover club have been testing E10. They say the motors run well or better without additive, however to others have been adding "Worth fuel care" which is supposed to reduce the Hygroscopic effect of E10. Land Rovers only have a short rubber hose and a rubber diaphragm in the SU pump so little to degrade there and if problems occur its easily remedied. Also they tend to be used all year round.  I would imaging carb modelled TRs would be similar has any one tried the E10 fuel? Fuel injection models are a different ball game.

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Castrol Valvemaster Plus supposedly mitigates against the effects of E10 fuel. Haven't tried it yet as E5 is readily available in my area, although only in the premium higher octane variety, which I use in my V8 engined car.

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16 minutes ago, harrytr5 said:

My EFI TR5 did not notice any difference on E10 (gone and done it now!!)

Regards Harry

Got to say I hope you are right but I guess it’s what the system was designed to use 

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The big problem for us and all classics going forward is metal corrosion as on contact with air the ethanol absorbs water and begins to decompose to acidic compounds which gradually eat their way through steel tanks and pipes, brass, aluminium and all similar parts of our fuel systems, it's OK with a daily driver and a good through-put of petrol, but our cars tend to sit around a bit now with their parts being munched!! .... I reckon it will be a good idea to completly drain our tanks before any lay up of more than three or four weeks especially during the winter, ....... although maybe the answer is all to fit Webers, petrol doesn't stay in the tank for long when those are being fed, you go past everything except petrol stations!!

Cheers Rob      

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Ran my supercharged 6 on E10 during the Round Britain Reliability Run last weekend. No noticeable difference in performance. Car runs a mainly US manufactured fuel system so should be OK with E10. But still aiming to shift to E5 or less before the winter layup. 

Actually also interested whether the E10 might cool the intake charge which would be good for the supercharger. 

Cheers 

Tim

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I am sure in most cases our car would run well on E10 fuel. 
it’s the cars hardware that will be affected over time. I think the soft metals and solders gets eaten ( big thing here would be brass / soldered level floats) and the hygroscopic effect effectively meaning water sat on the bottom of your tank especially over any prolonged layup, and unsuitable rubber pipe turning to jelly inside.

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Check out Outboard motor fuel stabiliser as the better ones bond with water and the Army use it for their fuel during long term storage of vehicle a stocks of fuel.

Might work but worth a try. Berryman by name of one

Rod

Edited by Rodbr
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16 hours ago, Lebro said:

Just because the pump says E10 doesn,t mean it is. E10 means "up to 10%"

Bob

This is very true but has to be at least 5% ethanol, whereas E5 could conceivably be 0%. We're at the mercy of the suppliers.

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On 10/5/2021 at 1:21 PM, Ecosse said:

I have contacted several companies but thus far not one of them has been able to confirm that they can, or have plans to, supply a comprehensive E10 compatible kit

A friend was in TRGB yesterday and this subject came up. They are apparently working on a kit to supply or install for each TR. Not easy getting it right so it is taking some time.

Mick

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A 'kit'?     LIke the 'kits' that were supposed to 'magnetise' your house water supply, or the tablets you dropped in your fuel tank to make it high octane ?    

Or a kit of parts, E10 resistant fuel hose, maybe diaphragms for carbs or metering units?  All the rubber bits, for you to install or have installed?

John

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2 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

A 'kit'?     LIke the 'kits' that were supposed to 'magnetise' your house water supply, or the tablets you dropped in your fuel tank to make it high octane ?    

Or a kit of parts, E10 resistant fuel hose, maybe diaphragms for carbs or metering units?  All the rubber bits, for you to install or have installed?

John

Well I would hope its the latter though I doubt a lot of it would be proven as theres not been enough long term testing of individual parts yet.

Stuart.

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Hello Mick and John,

Mick, Thanks for the information, I shall await developments.

John, It is a kit for the wetted parts of the fuel system for E10 compliance.

There are a number of 'additives', mainly from the USA, available, it would be good if the FBHVC could confirm their effectiveness. My understanding is that E10 has been used in the USA for some time, so information should be readily available. I would imagine that the additive would also require to contain an octane booster, unless a high octane E10 fuel is made available.

Regards,

Cliff

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Hello Cliff

Have been working through my 4A to change various bits to E10 compatible. Starting at the filler cap I have sourced 2 inch diameter filler tube from Holden that is E10 compatible  The gasket for the fuel sender is Viton (from Moss). Haven't yet sourced a Viton o-ring to replace the anti rattle o ring on the float on the sender. The original rubber one has swollen with E5 and fallen off. Next I replaced the pipe from the tank to the engine bay with one solid length thus removing the 2 rubber connectors under the car. There is a short length of tube (Gates 5225 but better grades available) from the tap I installed to the fuel pump. I got an E10 compatible mechanical fuel pump repair kit for the pump from Moss. The sight glass next to the pump has a Viton rubber seal I made to replace the original cork seal. Just about to change the 1/4 inch rubber hoses between the pump and the Strombergs. I have some Cohline 2134 NBR/CR hose that I believe is R6 grade. It would be better to use R9 though since that has much lower permeability than R6. I have an inline glass fuel filter that I fitted years ago so not sure if the nylon? filter inside is compatible. I have bought Viton O rings to replace the 3 in each Stromberg. I think you can get these from Burlen who also supply the stay up floats that are ethanol proof. I got some floats a while back from Joe Curto in New York before they were available in UK. Not sure about the float chamber gaskets. The Stromberg diaphragms I think are ok but again not entirely sure. I haven't worried too much about corrosion of metal parts because I think that hoses/gaskets/O-rings are more likely to be affected first. I may be proved wrong but we shall see. You could use any modern fuel hose of the right diameter because that will be compatible. Only thing to look at may be the permeability figures. R9 is much lower than R6 from what I have been reading and been told.

By the way, ethanol in modern screen wash will turn the rubber bellows in your manual screen wash pump to a treacle goo in no time. I have wondered if neat screen wash could be a useful test to see if rubber parts are E10 compatible. I might give that a go. When I worked in a laboratory we had to be careful to use the correct 'plastic' containers for high ethanol concentrations. Use the wrong one and it would 'melt' it in no time. I don't believe any of the so-called 'stabilisers' that claim to 'neutralise' ethanol will work. Lead additives are quite different.

Good luck

Keith

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Wow - there's thorough !

Must get around to checking mine, although for the time being I only use Esso E5 which has 0% ethanol.

Bob

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1 hour ago, Lebro said:

Wow - there's thorough !

Must get around to checking mine, although for the time being I only use Esso E5 which has 0% ethanol.

Bob

Yes up to a point. There are still a few unanswered questions though. I'm surprised that some of the parts suppliers aren't sure what they are selling with regard to E10 compatibility. This has been a long term project changing a bit at a time. Not something I have suddenly decided to do. Still not sure about the Stromberg float chamber gaskets or diaphragms though. The bit that surprised me was the rubber o ring on the fuel sender float. I found it in the bottom of the fuel tank and at first wondered what it was. I shall measure up the float when I fit the Viton gasket and source a Viton ring that is the right size. That had swollen in 0% to E5 fuel but has taken years for that to happen.

Keith

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21 minutes ago, irco said:

https://classicvalvemaster.co.uk/

Bold claims for this additive. Leaves them open to litigation if false. Would a company the size of Castrol knowingly leave themselves open to that. Maybe shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

It claims to be a corrosion inhibitor which is not the same as preventing the solvent activity of ethanol on rubber and 'plastic' materials. I have concentrated on the seals, gaskets and 'rubber' materials that might be affected by the solvent properties. Corrosion of metal components is a different matter and something I haven't looked at with regard to E10.

Keith

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Hello Keith,

Many thanks for your detailed response, it cerainly helps. E5 Fuel supply appears to be quite patchy north of Hadrian's Wall and there no doubt shall be a point where E10 may have to be used out of neccessity, which may lead to issues. I am unsure as to the timescale for degradation of wetted parts in the fuel system due to Ethanol, so doing something sooner rather than later may be prudent.

There are a number of 'Ethanol Eaters' in the marketplace but there does not seem to much in the way of evidence as to how effective they are. Our Scotland Director, Stephen Hall, has a contact in the USA where Ethanol has been used for around twenty years so we are hoping that some information may be available from the USA.

Thanks again for your information, perhaps you may consider contacting Wayne to have an article in TR Action which may benefit all TR Register members.

Best regards,

Cliff

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