saxchappy Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Fellow 7 owners - I badly need support, encouragement and advice at the moment. I'm close to jacking in and selling an almost restored 1980 inca yellow lump of frustration. Replacement flasher unit came this morning - putting it in place made no difference to indicators behaviour (see related post). Could the replacement be faulty? Ah well, I thought, I'll tune up the carbs instead. Got the engine warm only to find coolant coming out of the slot by the water pump and emulsion on the oil filler cap. So it seems that the water pump that I 'refurbed' is faulty (more than likely my fault) and the head gasket has gone. I am, as the young folk might say, well annoyed, and more than a touch frustrated. I seem to be taking several steps back for every tiny movement forward - and so close to the trip to the MOT station. Is it as bad as it seems, or can anyone out there give me a slender straw to grasp onto before I ring the Cars For Sale section of my local freebie? Come on guys - your assistance has worked in the past and I really need it now! Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) Hiya Kevin Keep going Don't give up!! These TR7s like nothing better than to challenge us, so don't let it win! Think how happy you'll be when you have your TR7 on the road and you're whizzing about round the back roads. Leave the bad-tempered car to stew in the garage for a week or so, then attack it afresh and teach it a lesson. (I should take my own advice here, KBA has been sat mouldering in the garage for a good few weeks now ) The head gasket isn't too bad a job if the head comes off OK, I managed it with a bit of help and I'd never done such a thing before in my life. Can't help with the flashers I'm afraid, I'll ask a mate of mine who's an auto electrician and report back. Good luck - we WILL have working TR7s one day I think they must be as scared by the MOT test as we are, that's why they play up - they don't wanna go! Ally Edited August 2, 2006 by Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Cheers, Ally - I feel better already I think I may have this whole person/car relationship thing wrong - clearly I've been far too understanding in the past I have another thread on the indicator thing going, so hopefully that will get sorted. I suppose part of it is to do with my disappointment with myself at obviously not having done the water pump/cylinder head job properly. Head should be easy to do as I copper-greased the studs before tightening. We'll see! cheers, Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 ... Head should be easy to do as I copper-greased the studs before tightening Before removing the head first check the water pump. As it is clearly leaking it is also possible that the coolant enters the engine through the waterpump drive As for the indicator problem, start with checking the earth points. Undo them, clean them and put some coppergrease on them to prevent corrosion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 Before removing the head first check the water pump. As it is clearly leaking it is also possible that the coolant enters the engine through the waterpump drive That's the sort of straw I'm desperate to clutch at! Is there any way I can tell whether the head has gone as well as the water pump without removing the head? As for the indicator problem, start with checking the earth points. Undo them, clean them and put some coppergrease on them to prevent corrosion Am I right in saying that the earth points for indicators are the same as those for the front and rear side lights and brake/reversing lights. All of these work OK so is it safe to assume that earthing is not the problem? Thanks again Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyt Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 A compression check would be a good place to start to see if you have a head gasket problem, did you re-torque the head after the engine was run? Its a good idea to do it as per the manual and then again after another 1000 or so miles. As for the indicator problem a test light bridgeing the connections and the earths is the place to start. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Is there any way I can tell whether the head has gone as well as the water pump without removing the head? If the head gasket has gone you would probably see evidence of water in the oil. i.e. droplets on dipstick when engine is cold, or as oil and water emulsion ('mayonnaise') in the rocker box or on oil filler cap. As the water is escaping externally, the water pump must be the chief suspect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 A compression check would be a good place to start to see if you have a head gasket problem, did you re-torque the head after the engine was run? Its a good idea to do it as per the manual and then again after another 1000 or so miles. Thanks - I'll get myself a compression tester. Any idea what the readings should be, or am I just looking for a reading on one cylinder that's different to the others? As for the indicator problem a test light bridgeing the connections and the earths is the place to start. Spent today fiddling with the electrics. I went through all the front indicator connections, abraded the male connections, put copper grease into the female ones, undid the earth connections on each side (just by the grommet for the headlamp etc wiring) and roughened/coppper greased these. Now NONE of the indicators either side front or back work via the indicator or the hazards although the hazard and indicator switches click as before. Could this, perversely, be good news? I also noticed that the hazard relay switch unit by the fuse box gets pretty hot after a couple of minutes of ticking. Last thing - the flasher relay for the indicators ticks quickly at first and then slows to the normal ticking speed you might expect. Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks for advice and suggestions so far Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 ... Could this, perversely, be good news? ... Clearly by working on the connectors and earthpoints did give some result Though I don't recommend smearing coppergrease on the ripault connectors. Use contact spray for those. Nevertheless time for a more methodical approach Get youself a wiring diagram of the car (haynes or workshop manual); Get yourself a multimeter (an extra test light will be handy too); Get yourself a couple off hours .... Than measure everything, starting from the switch down. Look in the wiring diagram how the circuits run than switch on the hazard or indicators and test with the multimeter if there is a current on the contacts where it should and so on .... I know not the nicest job in the world but ................ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Clearly by working on the connectors and earthpoints did give some result Though I don't recommend smearing coppergrease on the ripault connectors. Use contact spray for those. Nevertheless time for a more methodical approach Get youself a wiring diagram of the car (haynes or workshop manual); Get yourself a multimeter (an extra test light will be handy too); Get yourself a couple off hours .... Than measure everything, starting from the switch down. Look in the wiring diagram how the circuits run than switch on the hazard or indicators and test with the multimeter if there is a current on the contacts where it should and so on .... I know not the nicest job in the world but ................ Thanks for that. It looks like bite the bullet time with the multimeter and advice you have given. The only (well not quite only ) thing I don't understand is that I have sorted the earths and other connections I can see out and can't see what else can be so consistently wrong. Is there a link between the left and right sides of the car or are they totally (electrically) separate? cheers, Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sinc1964 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 To save spending hours faffing around with the faulty indicators and the wiring - guarantee the problem lies with the steering column stalk! Spend 2 weekends recently trying to sort out exactly the same problem you have - swapped the column stalk and yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Should you need one, I have loads of the late "square stalk" type. Regards, Karl. sinc1964 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 To save spending hours faffing around with the faulty indicators and the wiring - guarantee the problem lies with the steering column stalk! Spend 2 weekends recently trying to sort out exactly the same problem you have - swapped the column stalk and yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Should you need one, I have loads of the late "square stalk" type. Regards, Karl. sinc1964 Of course - why didn't I see the blindingly obvious! I recently swapped the upper steering knuckle and the steering wheel which necessitated removing the cowling around the the indicator stalks etc. When I came to replace the cowling I couldn't get the cowling parts to line up to allow the two bolts through - so I Araldited the two halves together. It must have been at the exact time the glue set hard that the column stalk went faulty. Or am I just a cynical pessimist? Thanks for your advice, Karl - I'll look into it Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 That's why I adviced to work "starting from the switch down" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 OK, so I need to get the steering wheel off in order to remove the indicator/wiper unit? I've been here before but with the steering column out of the car. How do I get the wheel off with the column in place? I've removed the nacelle (yes Araldite is stronger than BL trim plastic ) and the nut from the top of the column. Pulling the wheel doesn't have any effect. When I get in, is the unit repairable or is it an automatic replacement job? Thanks for your help again, guys (and gals) - it really is appreciated, even if I do seem to be jogging backwards at the moment BTW, it may go quiet at this end after tomorrow - I'm nipping up to the Lakes (in the VW Sharan, sadly) for a couple of days with the boys. I think I'll need the time in order to prepare myself mentally and spiritually for the work ahead (I'm trying not to remember that I have the water pump to replace yet.) cheers Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 OK, so I need to get the steering wheel off in order to remove the indicator/wiper unit? Just disconnect the ripault connector from the switch-cable and measure there, much easier than to dismantle it. If that's OK move on to the next item in the circuit .... and so on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodri Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 If you do take the steering wheel off- take care ! Screw, the nut back on a few turns, sit in the drivers seat and try to wack it from behind, up towards you, with both hands, one either side. If you don't replace the nut first you will be looking at an expensive dental bill when the wheel comes flying off the splines !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted August 7, 2006 Report Share Posted August 7, 2006 Hi Kevin, As Rhodri suggests, undo nut, then mark steering wheel boss spline and column shaft (I'd suggest with steering and road wheels pointing dead ahead) to re-assemble in same position, replace the nut and do up at least 2, pref. 3 turns. Apply pull to the centre part of the wheel and (or get the better half) give the shaft a light tap with pin hammer or small ball pein and punch-drift (on old bolt will do), there is usually a few mms movement on the shaft, this will loosen wheel, nut and wheel can then safely be removed. Hazard flasher units and indicator units can get quite warm, the older types use bi-metal strips which heat up and change shape to disconnect, as they coole very quickly they straighten and re-connect, hence the flash - they also have a set wattage range to give the correct flash rate! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) Anybody out there likes a challenge, I've got just the thing for you I have now checked the steering column switches, flasher unit, hazard flasher, hazard switch and earth points in the boot and the engine bay. All are fine and the wires involved show continuity. Here are my observations: If I disconect the individual wires (from the main loom to the lamp looms) at the front, leaving the big headlamp plug connectors intact and the flash actuator and delay connections together I still get nothing from the indicators but the hazards work perfectly normally. Even the dashboard flash indicators work. With the wires to the lamps in the engine bay connected up, as I believe, correctly, there is nothing happening with indicators in either direction. With hazards on, the hazard relay operates and the indicators work dimly. Also, the wires referred to above get hot. The brake lights do not now work. My car is a right hand drive 2.0 litre non-air-conditioning 1980 model. Can anyone please enlighten me in any way at all? I have checked all it is possible to check without taking the entire dash out (I'd really like to avoid that if possible!) and can find nothing amiss. The single wire connectors on each side have the following colour-coding: Right side: green to female connection black to male connection red/yellow to female connection (probably for fog light which isn't fitted?) Left side: green/white to female connection green/brown to female connection black to male connection x 2 red/yellow to female connection (again, probably for fog light which isn't fitted?) If the red/yellow wires are for fogs (there are similar unused connections in the boot) and the black wires run to earth (?) I can't see how I can connect up incorrectly. Any suggestions please?? Thanks in advance, Kevin Edited August 26, 2006 by saxchappy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 (edited) ... there is nothing happening with indicators in either direction. With hazards on, the hazard relay operates and the indicators work dimly. Also, the wires referred to above get hot ... Sounds very much like a shortcircuit somewhere ... The brake lights do not now work ... Could be the switch on the brake padel. They have a tendency to stick. One moment they work and the next they don't. Simple to check with the invaluable mulitimeter and relative easy to get at. Best to take it out dismantle and clean it as you are at it. ... The single wire connectors on each side have the following colour-coding ... Are those the connectors behind the headlamppods? As they are coloured black and white (or should be) it is hard to put them wrong (W in W and B in B ) Up front you have (or should have) a three contact ripault connector for connecting the sidelight/indicatorlight unit to the loom, also very hard to connect the wrong way round. Red/yellow (with single connector) is indeed for the foglights Don't despair .... it took me about 30 houres, with the loom out of the car, to get it sorted properly. But I haven't had any problems with it since then (almost 10 years ago) Edited August 26, 2006 by Beans Quote Link to post Share on other sites
morph Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Have you tried completley disconecting all of the indicators together then reconecting one at a time to see if you can isolate which one is at fault? Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted September 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Thanks for all the suggestions folks. I've followed up all that I can, but before I get to the stage of taking the loom out of the car (and all the other stuff that goes before it!) I have to confess to seeking outside assistance I'm getting an auto electrician in to check things over and put my mind at rest that I'm not doing something obvious incorrectly. At this moment I would be happy for him to tell me something as obvious as I didn't have the battery connected if it meant moving on. After being almost ready to enter MOT heaven seven weeks ago I'm now at the point where I just want it sorted. Thanks for the time you've spent with your assistance of me. I'll keep the forum posted as to the outcome of the next session of investigations Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 Well, he's coming over tomorrow pm. Reckons it should be straightforward to sort! Hurrah! This time tomorrow I could be ready to sort the MOT. I could be driving her by the weekend! Maybe a quick jaunt into the Land of My Fathers with Mrs Saxchappy and back in time to watch the sun setting over the bonnet. Oh joy of joys. At last, after all the pain tears and pennies it's about to happen. Or then again, perhaps not. Please feel free to give me a reality check, or perhaps just a naivety score out of ten. Hope springs eternal Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ally Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Good luck hope that it goes ok and you get through the MOT. These TR7s have a habit of waiting till you're nearly there, then throwing a tantrum....or maybe that's just mine? Ally Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saxchappy Posted October 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 It's done!!! Electrics sorted and engine tuned Fifty English pounds to the person who can guess that I had connected two wires which were the supply and earth for the side repeater lamps which my car doesn't have, thereby creating a short circuit, coupled with a faulty relay (probably caused by me incorrectly connecting up the aforementioned). Hurrah!! But don't forget - this is a TR7, so as one door closes, another opens. Repeated pushing of the brake pedal with the engine running causes the pedal to go to the floor (with a bit of resistance). Turn the engine off and you hear a hissing from the vicinity of the servo unit in the engine bay. Sounds easy (but expensive) to sort. Any thoughts? Is there a valve in the servo unit that could be leaking? Thanks for all your support (moral and technical) on the electrics issue - sorry to have let the side down by resorting to professional help. Looking at how it turned out, I doubt I'd have got there without someone looking at the car for me!! cheers, Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dulux72 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 As Ally said Keep going and you will get there. I got there in the end after 18 months but even for the few sunny days since its been worth it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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