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An engine out newbie question ..


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Unfortunately I neither have the facilities/tools or skill set to do this at home so my '66 is going to a local workshop to have the Revington TR rear crank seal leaking solution kit fitted. Now already I appreciated this could produce many how long is a piece of string answers, but imagine for a moment you don't have a pile of pocket money saved up ( i know, in which case why have you bought aTR4A!) but as the engine is having to come out and without possessing a crystal ball are there any other key parts that it would be sensible to replace at the same time or should the old adage of if it ain't broke don't fix it be applied here?

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TBH I wouldnt go down that route, I would instead use the Christian Marx rear seal that doesnt involve having the scroll machined off the crank.

Stuart.

 

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Hi 

If it were me Id do a bottom end overhaul  check crank replace main/big end bearings and thrust washers if necessary also you may want to consider if the crank is removed a balance along with the flywheel clutch cover/bolts and front pulley assembly Whilst the engines out make sure there's the extra pin in the release bearing fork

Chris  

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Excellent opportunity to convert to an alternator with narrow fan belt, as access to the pulleys on crankshaft, water pump and generator will be accessible.  See my article in Section J4 of the Technicalities CD (issued F.O.C. to new members as part of the joining pack), and a subsequent article by James Christie and me in TR Action 248 (accessible on-line on the TR Register website to Members).

If you want to discard the engine-driven fan, you could install a sucker fan on the back of the radiator, with a thermostatic switch located in the metal pipe which returns coolant from the base of the radiator to the pump.  I believe Moss has Revotec electric fan kits on sale,  and the metal pipe in stainless steel with boss for the switch is available from Revington (130039 seems to be out of stock at Moss).

You could change to geared starter motor - will reduce the current drawn from the battery and will spin the engine faster. 

Ian Cornish

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1 hour ago, ianc said:

Excellent opportunity to convert to an alternator with narrow fan belt, as access to the pulleys on crankshaft, water pump and generator will be accessible.  See my article in Section J4 of the Technicalities CD (issued F.O.C. to new members as part of the joining pack), and a subsequent article by James Christie and me in TR Action 248 (accessible on-line on the TR Register website to Members).

If you want to discard the engine-driven fan, you could install a sucker fan on the back of the radiator, with a thermostatic switch located in the metal pipe which returns coolant from the base of the radiator to the pump.  I believe Moss has Revotec electric fan kits on sale,  and the metal pipe in stainless steel with boss for the switch is available from Revington (130039 seems to be out of stock at Moss).

You could change to geared starter motor - will reduce the current drawn from the battery and will spin the engine faster. 

Ian Cornish

Thanks Ian, luckily there is an alternator installed by a PO and a fan but that appears to be operated on a manual toggle switch basis so installing a thermostatic switch seems sensible. I'd thought about the geared starter motor as I has one fitted to one of my VW's and it worked a treat is it safe to assume that as its a '66 it will be a TR3-4A Geared Starter Motor with 10 teeth suitable for engines with bolt-on ring gear that I will need?

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1 hour ago, stuart said:

TBH I wouldnt go down that route, I would instead use the Christian Marx rear seal that doesnt involve having the scroll machined off the crank.

Stuart.

 

Thanks for the suggestion Stuart, alas already collected the part for TR

 

1 hour ago, stuart said:

TBH I wouldnt go down that route, I would instead use the Christian Marx rear seal that doesnt involve having the scroll machined off the crank.

Stuart.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Cotswoldiver said:

Thanks for the suggestion Stuart, alas already collected the part for TR

 

 

+1 Sell the part and fit the better option of the Marx rear seal. Even if you only get 50% of what you paid for it, the Marx route used by many is preferable, you’ll save money and time not having to machine the crank.

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Here's some previous forum posts I'd saved before I went the Marx seal myself

4Cyl TR Rear Crank Seal - General TR Technical  Link 1

MARX TYPE crankshaft seal  Link 2

Oil leaks  Link 3

POSSIBLE REAR MAIN BEARING CAP OIL LEAK  Link 4

rear oil seal mandrel  Link 5

I bought mine from London TR Shop to ensure it was the genuine thing.

Paul

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4 hours ago, Cotswoldiver said:

Thanks for the suggestion Stuart, alas already collected the part for TR

 

 

Thanks for the update - just ordered one, not much point asking for advice and not taking it!!

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7 hours ago, Cotswoldiver said:

Unfortunately I neither have the facilities/tools or skill set to do this at home so my '66 is going to a local workshop to have the Revington TR rear crank seal leaking solution kit fitted. Now already I appreciated this could produce many how long is a piece of string answers, but imagine for a moment you don't have a pile of pocket money saved up ( i know, in which case why have you bought aTR4A!) but as the engine is having to come out and without possessing a crystal ball are there any other key parts that it would be sensible to replace at the same time or should the old adage of if it ain't broke don't fix it be applied here?

Havw you got a name we can call you by?

Who is doing the work - perhaps they have an opinion on what to do.

As you say you haven't a great deal of pocket money to play with carefully considered how the engine was running and could you hear any issues.

If you did then you need to tend to these whilst the engine is out and easy to work on.

For me sort the rear seal with the Christian Marx seal - it is the best on the market.

The GB will be out so check the condition of the clutch. Replace the taper pin and fit an extra roll pin at 90' to the taper pin.

If money allows look at the piston rings and  wear at the top of the bores.

Main & big-end shells

With the sump off look at the camshaft lobes.

Check the rocker shaft for wear

Many f these jobs can be done later on with the engine installed (but more difficult).

 

Roger

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7 hours ago, stuart said:

TBH I wouldnt go down that route, I would instead use the Christian Marx rear seal that doesnt involve having the scroll machined off the crank.

Stuart.

 

 

7 hours ago, trchris said:

Hi 

If it were me Id do a bottom end overhaul  check crank replace main/big end bearings and thrust washers if necessary also you may want to consider if the crank is removed a balance along with the flywheel clutch cover/bolts and front pulley assembly Whilst the engines out make sure there's the extra pin in the release bearing fork

Chris  

there you have the best advice.     Sure you could get a refund from Revingtons

Roy

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1 hour ago, RogerH said:

Havw you got a name we can call you by?

Who is doing the work - perhaps they have an opinion on what to do.

As you say you haven't a great deal of pocket money to play with carefully considered how the engine was running and could you hear any issues.

If you did then you need to tend to these whilst the engine is out and easy to work on.

For me sort the rear seal with the Christian Marx seal - it is the best on the market.

The GB will be out so check the condition of the clutch. Replace the taper pin and fit an extra roll pin at 90' to the taper pin.

If money allows look at the piston rings and  wear at the top of the bores.

Main & big-end shells

With the sump off look at the camshaft lobes.

Check the rocker shaft for wear

Many f these jobs can be done later on with the engine installed (but more difficult).

 

Roger

Thanks Roger. Ordered the Christian Marx seal & tool from The TR Shop this afternoon. Luckily engine sound OK, compression test has proved OK so will be keeping a close eye & ear generally

Regards

David

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You sure it is rear crank seal leak and not the rocker cover gasket or the oil seal under the bolt head of the original oil filter canister 

 

I had a ‘rear crank seal leak’.  It was the rocker cover gasket leaking.   A new cork gasket fixed the problem.

Peter W

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Opinions differ as to whether a thermostatic switch should be at the top of the radiator or lower.

However, mounting a switch in the radiator means soldering a suitable boss into to radiator's header tank, whereas it's simple to replace the metal return pipe with one having a boss already mounted therein.

I ran my TR4 for some 20 years with a thermo-switch in the return pipe and a pusher Kenlowe (i.e. in front of the radiator), and  these controlled the coolant temperature very well. 

More recently, I fitted a larger alloy radiator with a properly mounted (brackets welded to the radiator frame) Revotec sucker fan.  The new radiator came with a boss for a thermo-switch, so now I have 2 thermo-switches in parallel - belt & braces.  The switch in the return pipe operates first because it senses that the radiator, without the aid of the fan, is not reducing coolant temperature sufficiently, so calls for assistance from the electric fan - and that's what one wants.

Ian Cornish

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On my previous car I fitted a cooling fan from a modern in our local scrap yard. I fitted it using the threaded rod sold by B&Q. This stuff can easily be bent and shaped to size. I used a pusher configuration as that doesn't take space behind the radiator. Makes it easier to change fan belt if needed. Control was from switch in steel downpipe,  The fan should be as close as possible to rad for max efficiency. I made a "soft contact" with duct tape meaning to upgrade it later but never did. Worked fine for 10 years until I sold the car.

 

Mike

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The only good reason for not fitting the Marx seal is if a previous owner has already machined the scroll off the crank, which is an irreversible step.

The Marx seal effectively gives you a lip seal in addition to retaining the original scroll. 2 or 1 so to speak but bear in mind whichever after market lip seal is used it will be "cut" to get past the end of the crank so careful assembly is important to get it work at its best. That's the beauty of the Marx seal in that it is really a modified scroll seal that takes a lip seal that sits on the very end of the crank beyond where the scroll is machined. Even if the split seal doesn't work or fails you are at worst in the same place as a standard 4 pot in standard state.

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The electric fan switches are a bit failure prone in TRs. Vibration or other environmental factors?

The rad top mounted ones need a higher temp range than those in the bottom hose (one is measuring the temp of the water leaving the engine and the other the temp of the cooled water after it has passed the radiator) 

Both locations have their merits - the top of the rad reflects the heat produced bt the engine more immediately the return less so but is more damped so the fan may not come on as frequently if the heat production was as a result of a brief boot to the floor moment.

2 switches are better than one but you may need to check them periodically as you won't know that the first has failed until the second does.

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In addition to a thermostatic switch to control the electric fan, I suggest a manual override switch and indicator lamp somewhere on or beneath the dashboard (but visible).

When I bought my Kenlowe kit in 1970, a neat bracket was included, and this has switch and indicator - still there and now working with the Revotec fan.

Ian Cornish

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