Rob Y Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 Hi all, I have a 1973 CR TR6 which has an oil leak from the head gasket near side front of the engine. From reading articles on this forum it seems a common problem. Its not a major leak (that was from the front crankshaft/timing chain cover seal which is now fixed) but annoying and unsightly of course. From the extensive history file that I got with the car when I bought it 6 years ago this seems to have been a persistent problem. It has been mentioned from receipts from various garages where the head gasket has been changed. The car has had various upgrades and down grades to the engine in terms of cam shafts etc. but as far as I can tell it has the original head. I understand the problem comes because of the location of the head studs and an oil way close to the edge of the head. My question is, can this be solved or is it just an inherent problem with my engine (and others, from what I have read). Is it a case that you either have an engine with this problem or not, or can it be fixed. It looks as if so called specialists have had a go at this so I’m not overly confident that if I changed the head gasket it would make any difference……and this would be quite a big job for me. I don’t think, simply changing the head gasket is going to solve it. Like I said it’s not a major problem so I’m not looking to spend big money on this. As far as I can tell the head hasn’t been modified to run unleaded petrol, so I might consider doing this if the head comes off. I look forward to reading your thoughts/comments. Cheers, Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 Hi Rob, I'm sure a TR6 engine man will be along soon. (I'm not the man) Looking at the Moss image of the engine Moss Image it does not look as if there are any oil gallery holes near the front near side. It could be coming from the push rod cavities - which may suggest that the block and/or head is not flat and thus not pressing on the gasket as well as it could. It could be a very tight crack between the block and internals - You could trying cleaning the whole area and then applying chalk/Talc to see where it is coming from. If it is not bothering you too much then leave alone and attack it when the head really needs some work on it. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rob Y said: Hi all, I have a 1973 CR TR6 which has an oil leak from the head gasket near side front of the engine. From reading articles on this forum it seems a common problem. Its not a major leak (that was from the front crankshaft/timing chain cover seal which is now fixed) but annoying and unsightly of course. From the extensive history file that I got with the car when I bought it 6 years ago this seems to have been a persistent problem. It has been mentioned from receipts from various garages where the head gasket has been changed. The car has had various upgrades and down grades to the engine in terms of cam shafts etc. but as far as I can tell it has the original head. I understand the problem comes because of the location of the head studs and an oil way close to the edge of the head. My question is, can this be solved or is it just an inherent problem with my engine (and others, from what I have read). Is it a case that you either have an engine with this problem or not, or can it be fixed. It looks as if so called specialists have had a go at this so I’m not overly confident that if I changed the head gasket it would make any difference……and this would be quite a big job for me. I don’t think, simply changing the head gasket is going to solve it. Like I said it’s not a major problem so I’m not looking to spend big money on this. As far as I can tell the head hasn’t been modified to run unleaded petrol, so I might consider doing this if the head comes off. I look forward to reading your thoughts/comments. Cheers, Rob In the paperwork you have got? Is there any mention about refacing the cylinder head to correct any out of flatness. For example: The last time my head was taken off, I had to have 0.010" taken off to make it flat again! The next thing to check has it got the right head gasket fitted as it is a CR engine. There should be a tab sticking out from the H/G to indicate the double fire ring type. I cannot remember whether its on the left or right hand side. This applies to Coopers/J Payen head gaskets only, I think, who were OEM? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phil Read Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 Have you tried no leak? https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/using-no-leak-to-prevent-minor-oil-leaks/ I have nevr used it but it might be worth a punt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John L Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 It usually leaks from the pushrod cavity, with a composite Payen gasket I think it seeps thru the material, and shows a leak on the left side of the engine, with the original copper gasket its better made and that cavity is better sealed as the copper sheets are folded over at that part of the gasket. Original Copper gaskets can be obtained from Classic gaskets in Slough http://www.heritagegasketsltd.co.uk/products/4588089187/triumph-payen-ref-no-ae350/9368918 part number AE350 John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 16, 2021 Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 I've had this problem for years on my TR6, and finally cured the problem last year. Details are on this thread on the other side: https://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/6245-cylinder-head-gasket-oil-leaks/?tab=comments#comment-79861 Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Y Posted August 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2021 Great stuff guys. Lots of food for thought. Just read the very long thread from your link Nigel, very interesting reading. I need to do some checking on my engine but I don’t think I have any sweating or oil in the air plenum so I’m not sure that the improved breather is the answer for me, but I will check this. I’d love it if it was as this would mean a fix without having to remove the head. Nigel, in that thread you talked about the distortion around the head studs and also which sealant was best, with no breather issues do you think this would be the issue/solution? John, you talk about the copper gasket, are there any special considerations when using them. Should sealant be used with them for example? Bruce, no mention of any refacing of the cylinder head in fact it seems there may have been 2 or 3 heads used over its lifetime. Last time engine was rebuilt by TRGB and a Payen gasket is shown in the parts list used. I would hope that they would know which gasket is the right one to use. I have some checking to do and I will refer to the post linked by Nigel as this describes the issue I am talking about. I want to be sure before I remove the head. Cheers Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 17, 2021 Report Share Posted August 17, 2021 Hi Rob, A friend with a TR6 had this issue, he “fixed” it by a thick layer of sealant along the gasket without removing the head after thoroughly cleaning it first. I think it will not last forever but so far so good. Tempting solution. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 17, 2021 Report Share Posted August 17, 2021 Hi Rob, It goes without saying that for the head gasket to seal properly, both the top face of the block and the cylinder head face must be perfectly flat. My advice would be to carefully check block and head faces. Get the head lightly skimmed if necessary. Refacing the block is more difficult, engine out and full strip down. I avoided the need for this by carefully dressing back the raised areas around the block's cylinder head stud holes using a new, flat oilstone. Reassemble using a Payen gasket and Reinzosil sealant as described in the other thread. As for fitting an extra breather, PI engines don't have the benefit of vacuum scavenging like carb-fuelled engines, so the PI engines are more prone to sweating oil. If you think your engine isn't breathing heavily, try without an extra breather, but it certainly helped keep the oil inside my TR6 engine. The engine is completely oil tight for the first time in 15 years ownership! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Y Posted August 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2021 Waldi, it’s got to be worth a try first, if it works and saves removing the head then I’m happy. I will use the Reinzosil as mentioned by Nigel. Nigel, thanks for all your help with this. If I need to remove the head I feel confident I can fix the problem following your guidance. I will check air plenum to see if any oil there and I will at least clean (and possibly remove) the flame trap to see if that makes any difference, before looking at doing the breather mod. Do you have any pictures of the mod you did including the catch tank? I will be doing a compression test soon so who knows if that will reveal anything that would require the head to be removed. At the moment, I don’t think I need to remove the head just for this oil leak, but I’m reasonably happy now that if I do remove the head I will be able to fix this oil leak. I did 180 miles on Sunday going to and from Malvern as well as 150 miles to and from Silverstone for the classic and the oil level is still only about a quarter of the way down from the top indicator on the dipstick, so I don’t think it’s “using”/losing much oil. But the leak is annoying and unsightly. I will report back on any progress with this. Cheers Rob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 18, 2021 Report Share Posted August 18, 2021 On 8/16/2021 at 10:46 PM, Rob Y said: Great stuff guys. Lots of food for thought. Just read the very long thread from your link Nigel, very interesting reading. I need to do some checking on my engine but I don’t think I have any sweating or oil in the air plenum so I’m not sure that the improved breather is the answer for me, but I will check this. I’d love it if it was as this would mean a fix without having to remove the head. Nigel, in that thread you talked about the distortion around the head studs and also which sealant was best, with no breather issues do you think this would be the issue/solution? John, you talk about the copper gasket, are there any special considerations when using them. Should sealant be used with them for example? Bruce, no mention of any refacing of the cylinder head in fact it seems there may have been 2 or 3 heads used over its lifetime. Last time engine was rebuilt by TRGB and a Payen gasket is shown in the parts list used. I would hope that they would know which gasket is the right one to use. I have some checking to do and I will refer to the post linked by Nigel as this describes the issue I am talking about. I want to be sure before I remove the head. Cheers Rob Copper Gasket, that gasket was only used on the 1600cc & 2000cc engine ?? I am not certain that these s/b sold as they contain white asbestos which is banned to be sold to Joe public? Unfortunately I know people who have died from handling that material. Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 19, 2021 Report Share Posted August 19, 2021 Here's a pic of the oil catch tank installation on my 6. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Y Posted August 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2021 Is that the catch tank with the air filter on the top? That's a serious looking bit of kit! Very nice! I see you still have the flame trap in the breather from the rocker cover. I guess that's not an issue now you have the second breather from the block. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 19, 2021 Report Share Posted August 19, 2021 What's the catch can piped to. To catch oil vapour I generally install them connected to the PCV line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 21, 2021 Report Share Posted August 21, 2021 On 8/19/2021 at 5:41 PM, Rob Y said: Is that the catch tank with the air filter on the top? That's a serious looking bit of kit! Very nice! I see you still have the flame trap in the breather from the rocker cover. I guess that's not an issue now you have the second breather from the block. Rob Hi Rob, Yes, that's the catch tank with the small filter on top. It's only a cheapie off eBay, about £30 for 300ml size. I think the flame trap is still a good idea. As I understand, Triumph fitted the flame trap to eliminate the risk of a backfire through a throttle body igniting oil (and possibly petrol) fumes inside the engine. On 8/19/2021 at 11:11 PM, Mike C said: What's the catch can piped to. To catch oil vapour I generally install them connected to the PCV line. Hi Mike, The catch tank breather hose connects to the engine via an adaptor I made to fit the mechanical fuel pump boss on the side of the block, beneath the metering unit on PI engines. As a mechanical fuel pump isn't needed on PI engines, it's a convenient location from which to vent the crankcase. There's no PCV on PI engines. That's why breathing can be a problem, no PCV means no vacuum scavenging of the crankcase. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 21, 2021 Report Share Posted August 21, 2021 Ok. By PCV valve I meant the screen in the line from the rocker cover to the inlet manifold. My MB SLK had real problems with oil contaminating the MAF and intercooler, I replaced the MB closed oil separator with a filtered catch can but it looked too obvious- in Australia it's illegal where the original cranckcase ventilation system was closed. So I replaced the catch can with an equally illegal vent hose that's terminated alongside the gearbox (like a Morris Minor) - works well and is less obvious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 21, 2021 Report Share Posted August 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Mike C said: Ok. By PCV valve I meant the screen in the line from the rocker cover to the inlet manifold. My MB SLK had real problems with oil contaminating the MAF and intercooler, I replaced the MB closed oil separator with a filtered catch can but it looked too obvious- in Australia it's illegal where the original cranckcase ventilation system was closed. So I replaced the catch can with an equally illegal vent hose that's terminated alongside the gearbox (like a Morris Minor) - works well and is less obvious. We were at cross purposes about the PCV! My view is that on PI engines which lack vacuum scavenging of the crankcase, the breather tube from the rocker cover is insufficient for a car that's driven hard, no matter what it's connected to. A second breather point has made a big difference on my TR6 engine. It used to blow a little oil from the small vent in the oil filler cap and would sweat oil from the timing case seal, even after replacement. With a second breather, the engine is now completely oil tight. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 21, 2021 Report Share Posted August 21, 2021 The best way to sort breathing issues is to use this system, http://www.racetorations.co.uk/triumph-c56/tr4-c6/tr4-engine-c15/racetorations-closed-engine-breather-kit-tr5-6-p144 small catch tanks are a waste of time Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 21, 2021 Report Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) If I went that way I'd just vent the rocker cover straight to atmosphere- no catch can, no filter. A simple and reliable solution that's worked for years on my SLK. It allows the engine to breath/vent the same, relatively pure, ambient air as the driver- as you know, this system was used for most vehicle engines prior to the mid '60's. Edited August 22, 2021 by Mike C Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DRD Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Mike C said: If I went that way I'd just vent the rocker cover straight to atmosphere- no catch can, no filter. A simple and reliable solution that's worked for years on my SLK. It allows the engine to breath/vent the same, relatively pure, ambient air as the driver- as you know, this system was used for most vehicle engines prior to the mid '60's. Unfortunately that make an oily mess under the bonnet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DRD Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 16 hours ago, Nigel Triumph said: We were at cross purposes about the PCV! My view is that on PI engines which lack vacuum scavenging of the crankcase, the breather tube from the rocker cover is insufficient for a car that's driven hard, no matter what it's connected to. A second breather point has made a big difference on my TR6 engine. It used to blow a little oil from the small vent in the oil filler cap and would sweat oil from the timing case seal, even after replacement. With a second breather, the engine is now completely oil tight. Nigel Nigel, is there fitting available to use as a connection to the fuel pump flange? Cheers Darren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 26 minutes ago, DRD said: Nigel, is there fitting available to use as a connection to the fuel pump flange? Cheers Darren Short answer... No! I made a plate from 10mm alloy then drilled and tapped it to take a suitably sized hose fitting. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brian -r Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 I looked at the racetorations kit , very nice but very pricey for those of us that don't do a lot of track work or massive fast road miles. Do wonder how a fiberglass unit can be so expensive. Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 2 hours ago, DRD said: Unfortunately that make an oily mess under the bonnet. No it doesn't- I run a discrete hose to vent alongside the gearbox. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DRD Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, Mike C said: No it doesn't- I run a discrete hose to vent alongside the gearbox. That's what I do but via a catch tank. It's surprising how much oily water gets trapped in it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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