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4 hours ago, Richard Pope said:

2. I will almost certainly go down the traditional ICE route . . .

Good to hear, Richard! :) 

 

On 7/8/2021 at 5:25 PM, Bfg said:

Is there such a review (any classic car converted to electric) published that you can point me to, or otherwise share please ?

Hi Pete, if you've not seen the video from earlier in this thread (page 2), it may well answer a few questions.

1961 Bentley S3 Continental EV conversion by Silverstone based British resto-mod company "Lunaz": a team well respected within the business for their high end classic conversion projects. (I'll post it again here for convenience)

If that whets your appetite, their website is definitely worth a browse for more info : https://lunaz.design/  They've an eclectic stable of converted electric classics, including this XK120 Coupe.

EVJag.thumb.jpg.d4882076b8396487c3f46401b638c261.jpg

The EV classic car conversion scene already has a longstanding following stateside.

Here's Jonny Smith, of California based electric vehicle workshop "EV West". 

Cheers, Deggers

Edited by Deggers
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Conversion to ethanol is much greener: no battery, no new manufacture of motor and drive train, utliises 99% of existing TR.  Bulk production of EtOH is established technology, feedstock sugar beet. For low annual milage a rationed supply of ethanol for classics would meet green criteria.   Peter

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31 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Conversion to ethanol is much greener: no battery, no new manufacture of motor and drive train, utliises 99% of existing TR.  Bulk production of EtOH is established technology, feedstock sugar beet. For low annual milage a rationed supply of ethanol for classics would meet green criteria.   Peter

Like the idea of ethanol fuel Peter, but generally crop derived fuels have led to real issues with food availability. 

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5 hours ago, Tim D. said:

Like the idea of ethanol fuel Peter, but generally crop derived fuels have led to real issues with food availability. 

Yes, Tim, I agree. Am not suggesting all vehicles run on EtOH, the vast majority need to be lecky or hydrogen. Use of E5 and E10 are gestures and have lead to great reduciton in US sales overseas of edible corn. But for legacy vehicles EtOH offers simple conversions. Methanol from methane generated in waste biodigesters might also work, obviating the food argument, but ti is much more agressive in fuel systems. An annual ration might be envisaged, enough to keep classics visible, like heritage steam today. Peter

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Peter, 

Surely the place to burn ethanol, methane from biodigesters, wood pulp and use solar, wind, nuclear or whatever is not in millions of ICE's but in centralised power stations where emissions can be better controlled and probably with greater efficency.

So how do we power our cars, lawn mowers, chain saws etc.? Rationally it has to be by electricity or a derivative of electricity production such as hydrogen.

But I'm no lover of using a massive percentage of the energy provided to the current crop of electric vehicles toting heavy batteries around the planet.

Alan

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4 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

Peter, 

Surely the place to burn ethanol, methane from biodigesters, wood pulp and use solar, wind, nuclear or whatever is not in millions of ICE's but in centralised power stations where emissions can be better controlled and probably with greater efficency.

So how do we power our cars, lawn mowers, chain saws etc.? Rationally it has to be by electricity or a derivative of electricity production such as hydrogen.

But I'm no lover of using a massive percentage of the energy provided to the current crop of electric vehicles toting heavy batteries around the planet.

Alan

Alan, I only envisage EtOH for use in classics and agriculture, not for mass transport. For most forms of transport battery electric or hydrogen would be necessary. We could also imagine a return of trolley buses and trucks, to minimise battery mass without loss of range. The trolley tractor, or a tractor fed by cable, is implausible so EtOH might become  their green fuel, one that classics might be allowed a rationed share. The days of driving for  fun without mileage restriction may well become a distant memory by mid-century, maybe earlier. Peter

 

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On trolley buses, a letter this week in the Guardian says that London's extensive tram network was replaced in the 1930s by trolley buses. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/09/buses-not-the-tube-derailed-our-trams

which were in turn replaced by diesel buses in 1940.   All allegedly for economic reasons, although the imminent Blitz woud  ruin electricity distribution.

John

 

 

 

Edited by john.r.davies
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1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

On trolley buses, a letter this week in the Guardian says that London's extensive tram network was replaced in the 1930s by trolley buses. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/09/buses-not-the-tube-derailed-our-trams

which were in turn replaced by diesel buses in 1940.   All allegedly for economic reasons, although the imminent Blitz woud  ruin electricity distribution.

John

 

 

 

We still had Trolley Buses here in West London in the 1960s, I believe they ceased operating here on 8th November 1960.
They used to make me fee very sick, I wonder if an electric car would make me feel the same?

7E0B8993-2C89-46CA-8BC9-C404B5188D34.jpeg

Edited by SuzanneH
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As a child I used to like the trolley-buses in Portsmouth - they were very smooth running I seem to recall.  They had gone by the time we returned to the area in 1963.  The problem with them of course is the overhead cabling network required. At the time, the upkeep of that versus the cost of maintaining diesel buses would have been a 'no-brainer'. 

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A lot of the problem with trolley buses was the increase in other traffic as they could only veer a few feet either side of the overhead cabling or the pantograph arm would become detached, I remember them in Nottingham and often would see a man with a long pole lifting the arm up to reconnect.

Stuart.

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Lots of trials over the last 5 years around the world testing electric buses that use an induction charging system at specific points including garages, bus stations etc.:

https://www.charterhub.com/blog/fun-stuff/2018/01/bombardiers-primove-wireless-charging-system-propels-e-buses-to-key-milestone

https://www.electrive.com/2018/04/19/inductive-200-kw-charging-system-for-buses-ready/

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131665_short-loop-electric-bus-serves-as-a-proving-ground-for-dynamic-wireless-charging

https://ipt-technology.com/wireless-charging-double-decker-buses-london/

It is a trolley bus without the pantograph but uses a battery between charging points which are ideally every time the bus stops for a few minutes in a specific place. Ideal for inner cities.

Mick

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23 hours ago, mtrehy said:

not how I would do it but gives you an idea of a relatively low budget route to electric TR6

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/er-6-electrifying-conversion-paul-martin/

Brilliant many thanks for sharing this.  I'm impressed by the gentleman's progressive thinking and his actually making the car, over-coming hurdles, and using the car.   I was again disappointed that the article focus was on the conversion and almost nothing about the consequent car, but the link contained within that to his E-fire (Triumph Spitfire conversion to Electric) filled in some of the gaps, from this gentleman's real experience. 

Just thinking out loud . . .

A car for going places ?  of particular note to anyone wanting to use their car ..even on this little island.  "So far, the “Triumph E-Fire” as we call it, has been a surprisingly reliable and enjoyable ride. It has a comfortable highway range of about 100 km on a charge. It recharges from my 61 km commute in about 6.5 hours from a normal 120V wall socket- or in half that time from a 240 V electric charging station. "

So, a range of 62 miles for a spitfire size & weight of car, which for many of us would mean a round trip, not either way.  And 3-1/4 hours recharge time using 240v.  Where facilities allow recharging, perhaps for an hour while stopped for lunch might add another 15 - 20 miles to the range.  Quite possibly battery technology has moved on, over the past six years, to offer a greater range.  Here in the UK / Europe we might also use higher (3-phase ?) voltages for fast recharging ?   

Costs " The conversion parts were costly- about $16,000 CDN all told- but about $8,000 of that was just for the batteries."  The article is published in October 2017 so the prices are probably from 2016.  He clearly did almost all of the work himself, so with minimal cost in professional garage services or fabrication, and he already had a Toyota gearbox & driveshaft to couple the electric motor to.   I wonder what a " series string of 32 Sinopoly 3.2 V 180 amp-hour lithium iron phosphate batteries, capable of storing about 18.5 kWh of electricity at a nominal 105 volts DC " or their equivalent would cost in the UK today.?  Are batteries cheaper now or are their prices being upped by greater demand ? 

Lifespan of batteries ?  "The batteries should last about 3,000 charge-discharge cycles if kept below 70% depth of discharge and not over-charged"  Although his daily commute used just 60% of the full charge, but if the car were used in the evenings & at weekends, for popping to the shop, running his son around, etc, we might assume an average of a full-charge each day.  So the calculation is simply 3000 divided by 365 days = 8.2 years battery life.  That of course assumes the batteries don't drop in performance over that period of time ..and there's no mistake in over-discharging or over charging the batteries which might lessen that duration.    

At $8000CDN a pop + inflation (or else lower cost later generation batteries ? ) might we presume the cost would be around $ 1000CDN (or whatever today's UK cost is) per annum.  Lead acid batteries have a little value when cashed-in for recycling, but I don't know if that is the same with modern EV batteries.   Offset against this though would be no ICE repairs to worn out parts, no decoking, new piston rings or re-cutting valves, no gaskets, &/or servicing costs like points, oil and various filters, antifreeze, etc.   Vehicle weight is very similar so tyre wear would be much the same, but with regenerative braking the cost of brake shoes. I don't know how long the electric motor or controllers would last but I suspect we might assume a 20+ year vehicle lifespan, if the vehicle is usually garaged.  

Interesting.., thanks again for the link and to the author Paul Martin. 

Pete.

 

 

 

 

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On 7/9/2021 at 8:33 PM, Deggers said:

Hi Pete, if you've not seen the video from earlier in this thread (page 2), it may well answer a few questions.

1961 Bentley S3 Continental EV conversion by Silverstone based British resto-mod company "Lunaz": a team well respected within the business for their high end classic conversion projects. (I'll post it again here for convenience)

Thanks Deggers  ..much appreciated in opening my horizons.  

I very much like that Bentley. It's a stunningly beautiful car to my eyes. 

EV conversion does make a whole lot of sense where silence and ride quality were the essence of elegance.  And especially so if one is starting from a project car faced with RR quality mechanical restoration costs.  I doubt if the fuel running costs of the Bentley were frugal either, so those of an EV would show a far sooner return on the up-front investment of conversion.  Interesting that even with this size of car - the range is still only 250 mile (round trip). 

Otherwise, I always think it a shame when a classic car's patina is lost in restoration and/or conversion ..but perhaps they'll have that back in another 50 - 60 years.

Pete.

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Hydrogen cell engine... But there is a fear of what happen to the Graf Zeppelin in the 1930's in New York? As you will be driving a potential fire bomb!

Bruce.

The Hindenberg was the igniting one - the Graf Zeppelin had a long, distinguished and safe career, completing over 1 million miles. It was withdrawn from service after the Hindenberg disaster.

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, SuzanneH said:

We still had Trolley Buses here in West London in the 1960s, I believe they ceased operating here on 8th November 1960.
They used to make me fee very sick, I wonder if an electric car would make me feel the same?

7E0B8993-2C89-46CA-8BC9-C404B5188D34.jpeg

I used to go to school on these very 'Trollies'...If you didn't hold on tight when then accelerated away you'd fall over!

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6 hours ago, RobH said:

That should kill off demand for ecars once it is wider known. 

And plugging it into a 16 Amp socket instead of a dedicated charger can presumably be countered at peak times with smart meters.

Perhaps there is method in their madness: they want everyone to stop driving, period.

Peter

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https://theconversation.com/china-is-on-course-to-build-the-best-cars-in-the-world-167661

Maybe, but if the lecky is NLA except when the wind is blowing, the best is as useless as a SInclair C5.

Peter

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On 7/2/2021 at 6:09 PM, Peter Cobbold said:

 

I dont see the urgency. 2030 is supposedly the final year for sales of new fossil-fuelled cars, and given a 15 year usable life, that means fuel should be available at the pumps until ca 2045. After that, who knows? Maybe fuel will be available in drums like racing fuels today. Oil refining supplies many products eg tar for roads, so I dont see petrol vanishing totally. Petrol may eventually be a premium product. priced accordingly, but for say 1 k miles annually, hopefully affordable. Whether classics will still be admired or cursed by the general public in 2045 is debatable. 

Convert to electric? I'd never contemplate that: no exhuast note, no smells, noise/vibration. It just would not be a TR.  If fossil fuel becomes banned for road use, maybe bioethanol will return.

Peter

 

 

CNG?

It works in Delhi for all Tuk  Tuks 

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/120412-delhi-india-auto-rickshaws

http://www.backup.ngvjournal.com/japan-bets-on-cng-trucks/

 

https://www.citizen.co.za/business/business-news/2168975/taxi-industry-turns-to-gas-as-high-petrol-prices-bite/


 

The wartime solution using coal gas 

image.thumb.jpeg.b264b59a204b0782fcf9795fb7739987.jpeg

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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1.) They have just opened a small retailpark near me and each unit has a EV charge point. So handy when I nip in to either Toolstation ir Screwfix to collect a pre-ordered item. If I had an EV, how much charge would it get in the 1 or 2 minutes I am there?

2.) A friend retired recently retired as a construction industry project manager with his last buiding a new surburban school. The planners insisted no cars nor car park was allowed on site, however building regs dictated several EV charge pounts so thiese were duly installed on a wall no car could get to!

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On 9/12/2021 at 7:41 PM, Richard Pope said:

1.) They have just opened a small retailpark near me and each unit has a EV charge point. So handy when I nip in to either Toolstation ir Screwfix to collect a pre-ordered item. If I had an EV, how much charge would it get in the 1 or 2 minutes I am there?

2.) A friend retired recently retired as a construction industry project manager with his last buiding a new surburban school. The planners insisted no cars nor car park was allowed on site, however building regs dictated several EV charge pounts so thiese were duly installed on a wall no car could get to!

1 - an almost negligible amount.  My wife has a hybrid and I recently plugged in for 5 minutes (as it was empty) while popping into Tesco.  Barely got out of the car park before it switched back to petrol.  You can work it out easily enough if you know the output of the charger.  

2 - I understand that it will b (if not already) compulsory to include EV charging points on all new builds

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Hi all,

I worked the relevant part of government a few years ago and it was well known that the grid would not have the capacity to support charging a national fleet of electric cars. It was explained ad nauseum to the politicians but I am not sure they ever really got it.. "Electric.. good, Diesel bad" was about all we got..

Tim

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4 hours ago, Tim D. said:

Hi all,

I worked the relevant part of government a few years ago and it was well known that the grid would not have the capacity to support charging a national fleet of electric cars. It was explained ad nauseum to the politicians but I am not sure they ever really got it.. "Electric.. good, Diesel bad" was about all we got..

Tim

 

Sigh ... they will realise when it is too late.  

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