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On 7/3/2021 at 10:29 AM, astontr6 said:

Hydrogen cell engine... But there is a fear of what happen to the Graf Zeppelin in the 1930's in New York? As you will be driving a potential fire bomb!

Bruce.

We early CP Pi owners already do!  

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2 hours ago, SuzanneH said:

Don’t forget that TFL is also catering for all those tourists that stop locals being able to use the tube and buses comfortably or even get anywhere on time.

It’s not that many years ago that I used to wait over an hour sometimes for a bus from South Harrow to Hayes and the same from Hayes to Uxbridge.

Of course, the £6.6 BILLION that tourist contribute annually to London is insignificant, but it is two thirds of the budget for TfL!

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2 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Yes, who would think that Oz while its forests combust would still rely upon coal for much of its electricity and a large section of its economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_Australia     No guessing who will build the first TR to run on powdered coal.

The photo I posted last Sunday was  an early  steam Ross  powered sportscar. From a Triumph owners point of view, It does bear some resemblance to a an MG A .

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52 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Of course, the £6.6 BILLION that tourist contribute annually to London is insignificant, but it is two thirds of the budget for TfL!

BUT, it doesn’t all go to TFL does it?  All people living in Greater London pay a precept in their Council Tax for TFL.

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21 hours ago, Richard Pope said:

The problem I said at the top is I very soon have to choose to either spend at least £7+k now on petrol only to scrap it in not very many years.

Yes, sorry, I was heading off piste. I have looked at this for the very same reasons as you. As someone else stated, just the bits to do the conversion today would probably set you back £20K-25K. And 4/5ths of that is split between the motor and the battery. A significant lump is for the adapter plate on the gear box housing where the electric motor bolts in. Most quotes I received were around the £40K mark - plus or minus a bit - for someone to do it for me. There's a lot of "first time" costs that should iron out in due course - like that adapter plate. Batteries will become cheaper and lighter (would weigh 350Kg+). And so will motors. Hence the suggestion to wait. If you convert today, you are paying first user premium. If you wait, the savings you should be able to make will be more than the costs of keeping the ICE going... Hopefully someone on here does it eventually and we get access to the purchased kit and pictures!! In my opinion. We have at least another 10-15 years of driving left with the straight 6. So i think your best bet is to fix up the ICE and that has the better payback over the longterm financially too.

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On 7/4/2021 at 10:18 AM, john.r.davies said:

The Swedish statistican Hans Rosling considerd the question of how do we control our population.    He concluded that education, and the empowerment of women, will limit the world to 11 billion people, with no need for Malthusian solutions.

Sad to say, Rosling died in 2017, at only 69 years old.  The World needs more people who can think as clearly as he did.

That man was brilliant, loved all his stuff

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3 hours ago, OWEN WB said:

Yes, sorry, I was heading off piste. I have looked at this for the very same reasons as you. As someone else stated, just the bits to do the conversion today would probably set you back £20K-25K. And 4/5ths of that is split between the motor and the battery. A significant lump is for the adapter plate on the gear box housing where the electric motor bolts in. Most quotes I received were around the £40K mark - plus or minus a bit - for someone to do it for me. There's a lot of "first time" costs that should iron out in due course - like that adapter plate. Batteries will become cheaper and lighter (would weigh 350Kg+). And so will motors. Hence the suggestion to wait. If you convert today, you are paying first user premium. If you wait, the savings you should be able to make will be more than the costs of keeping the ICE going... Hopefully someone on here does it eventually and we get access to the purchased kit and pictures!! In my opinion. We have at least another 10-15 years of driving left with the straight 6. So i think your best bet is to fix up the ICE and that has the better payback over the longterm financially too.

Personally I'd do away with the lot and put a tesla drive unit in the back. Running the standard gearbox, prop, diff etc loses much of the benefits of the conversion (and wont cope with the torque increase) and doesn't free up space for batteries. Still going to be 25K+ in parts though. I'm building a similar(ish) ev (but will be new 2022 plate) at the moment and it's over 30K in parts, plus hours and hours of design and fabrication work. I'd put motor & batteries at around 16K for tesla motor and good range, you're then into battery management, motor control, charging (+3K for CCS fast charge), limited slip diff, numerous expensive HV components, battery boxes, throttle pedal. 

Then you need driveshafts, uprated brakes & suspension, fabrication work, new clocks, power steering, etc etc etc etc

And then a charging point at home.....

But in the case of the car I am building it would otherwise have had all new crate LS3 v8, tremec box, clutch, prop, manifolds, exhaust, fuel tank. So the cost differential for my project isn't anywhere near as vast as it is in this TR6 case

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4 hours ago, SuzanneH said:

BUT, it doesn’t all go to TFL does it?  All people living in Greater London pay a precept in their Council Tax for TFL.

No of course not, it goes to hoteliers, bar owners, restaurant owners, taxi drivers, shop owners, anyone who preys of the tourist, most of whom will pay taxes/rates.

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5 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

TimD, efficiencies in the electricity grid and generation, yes, but include those in how petroleum is obtained, refined and distributed!

Absolutely. It just that often people equate electric with clean, zero carbon which is very seldom the case. Certainly with good planning and large rejigging of our grid and generation infrastructure it should be better. Much better. But there are some large one off carbon costs to be paid before hand. 

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4 hours ago, mtrehy said:

But in the case of the car I am building it would otherwise have had all new crate LS3 v8, tremec box, clutch, prop, manifolds, exhaust, fuel tank. 

Awesome combination, would love to see you complete it

kc

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13 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Mike, I was staying at my son's in Sarf Lunnon, attending the Crystal Palace Sprints.    I needed to be back in the paddock early on Sunday morning.    I asked, should I get a taxi?  No, Dad, there's a bus every 20 minutes!   And the bus stop is a few hundred yards away.

There was a bus, at 0715 on a Sunday morning.  Two other people on it, can't recall the fare but it had to a fraction of a taxi.     

Maybe this is a special example, but travelling with him and his family around London, at weekends, we never need to book, look up timetables, just turn up and the next bus/train/Underground will be along ina few minutes.     That's what "levelling up" should mean for the rest of the country!

John

John

One of the reasons the buses in London are so good is, someone (dont know who) had the idea to have every bus in radio contact with the control centre.

On each route, the busses are advertised as running 'X' minutes apart

The control centre knows where each bus is.

If buses on a route start to bunch, control hold the following busses at their nearest stop, until they all spread out again.

It works a treat

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12 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Yes, who would think that Oz while its forests combust would still rely upon coal for much of its electricity and a large section of its economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_Australia     No guessing who will build the first TR to run on powdered coal.

The biggest bushfire in Oz was in the mid 1800s. Last years were big but not unprecedented. The evidence is that they have been regular for thousands of years.

At the moment we are having the coldest winter for a very long time. I read that Perth is the coldest for 26 years.

China builds more coal fired power station every few months than Australia has total. Far more important and urgent things to worry about e.g. China's aggressive stance to its neighbours.

Edited by John McCormack
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7 hours ago, kcsun said:

Awesome combination, would love to see you complete it

kc

I don't disagree but the car isn't for me and the future owner already has a number of V8 engined toys and now wants to add a unique electric to his garage.

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I would say converting any of our cars is a bit too soon.

Electric technology is improving in the automotive industry but, is it there yet in terms of range and charging times on purpose built vehicles?

As for conversions I would say nowhere near really.

At a realistic price I don't think so.

It will come but I wouldn't do it yet as there is a real probability of swapping it to something far more effective and practical in a few years time.

Who goes "Wow" at the sound of a washing machine?

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On 7/2/2021 at 4:44 PM, Richard Pope said:

I know there could be plenty of discussion on the whole topic of classic cars being converted but I really want to know or explore how feasible it is / could be.

I'd actually be interested to hear more of your own research and indeed your personal experience of driving an electric car or hybrid, as well as hearing more of your own thinking / consideration into how feasible it would be to convert your own TR, how would you do it ?  Personally I've never driven an electric car, so I cannot really poo poo the idea. 

I was very disappointed to have read of the TR6 conversion in the magazine ..when it concluded without a road-test or appraisal. Hopefully there will be a follow up soon.   In the meantime, is there such a review (any classic car converted to electric) published that you can point me to, or otherwise share please ?  

 

Ecologically, economically, practicalities ;  There seem to be just so many unsubstantiated points of view being banded around that I guess nobody really knows all the facts, the big picture of long-term ecological benefits ..where electrical power generation, all aspects of recycling spent batteries, and the impact of building millions of new cars to replace serviceable ICE ones are factored in. 

How soon ?  . . . ;   Naturally we cannot know how quickly technology will change or how prices may come down, but certainly history reveals how new technology carries a premium price tag, and how in recent years that technology changes quicker than most of us can keep up with.  

Perhaps a little off-thread, but a few years ago I was offered a very senior position with a company aiming to manufacture electric vehicles for third world economies. The vehicle parts were to have been supplied a CKD kits for those localised economies to assemble. The company had built and tested half a dozen prototypes (here in the UK) upon a modular concept, and had prepared a business plan for venture capital ..which I was privy to.  I rejected the position in large part because I sought to retire, but equally because from my examination of the figures I couldn't accept its viability. 

In short, that particular proposal anticipated selling a huge number of brand new, albeit crude, vehicles to communities whose impoverished populous simply couldn't have afforded to buy them.  It implied a leap in those communities, presently reliant on mostly very-well-used scooters & small motorcycles, to suddenly have the financial resources to buy brand new four-wheeled electric vehicles / cars and light commercials. It also presumed re-charging the batteries from household solar panels, which of course would have added more to their purchase cost.  However, from my limited knowledge in the marine world ; live-aboard yachts are barely able to cope with basic accommodation needs like lighting and on-board appliances like refrigerators, entertainments, a computer, recharging telephones, and other boat systems ..despite their using solar panels together with wind generators.  I couldn't see any facts (calculations) to support the supposition that a few solar panels would produce enough power (even in India or South America) to propel anything more than an electric scooter very far at all.   

I share this, only because likewise most of the developed world 's workforce  likewise cannot afford the purchase cost of any  new vehicle + the additional cost of a charging point at their home (often that being rented accommodation where the tenant is unwilling to invest in any such costs) or else they simply don't have their very own parking place. So whether they believe in electric vehicle's worth to the environment or not, isn't the point.  Like me, they have to buy a used ICE car.  And although the extra electricity used would be instead of petrol or diesel costs, there would be resistance / upset to greater household electricity bills ..because in most homes that is a household budget rather than vehicle budget. 

Naturally the first thing to need replacing on a used 5 - 10 year old electric vehicle will their batteries and tyres.  I don't know how much that would cost, but again from the marine industry I know that both a yacht's house batteries and its starter batteries are still very expensive.   I've not noted a drop in replacement costs despite new technology nor their greater production numbers. 

Surely, the likelihood (I cannot say it is a fact ..aside from in my own household) will be that most people cannot, or will not, afford to buy a new battery operated car, nor a replacement battery bank for a used one (and often not even a good battery for their ICE car !), and this alone will ensure ICE fuels will need to be available for the sake of a country's economy, for many years to come yet ..because their workforce need to commute. ?

 

I believe the environmental / government initiative is good but ;  Is it not really intended to kick-start greater ecological awareness, to start a trend in that direction ..and in the short-term to boost new car sales and electrical services ..which both puts more money back into circulation and into revenue ? 

Anyway, those things aside, I'd like to hear more as to the engineering to convert a TR to electric &/or hybrid.

cheers,

Pete.

 

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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Serious reply . . .

I was thinking about this again when I woke early this morning ..and the inner engineer in me started asking many more questions than I could presently answer.  Those being specific to converting a TR6 to electric power.  

The following reply, although talking about costs raises a number of interesting points . . .

On 7/6/2021 at 6:31 PM, mtrehy said:

Personally I'd do away with the lot and put a tesla drive unit in the back. Running the standard gearbox, prop, diff etc loses much of the benefits of the conversion (and wont cope with the torque increase) and doesn't free up space for batteries. Still going to be 25K+ in parts though. I'm building a similar(ish) ev (but will be new 2022 plate) at the moment and it's over 30K in parts, plus hours and hours of design and fabrication work. I'd put motor & batteries at around 16K for tesla motor and good range, you're then into battery management, motor control, charging (+3K for CCS fast charge), limited slip diff, numerous expensive HV components, battery boxes, throttle pedal. 

Then you need driveshafts, uprated brakes & suspension, fabrication work, new clocks, power steering, etc etc etc etc

And then a charging point at home.....

But in the case of the car I am building it would otherwise have had all new crate LS3 v8, tremec box, clutch, prop, manifolds, exhaust, fuel tank. So the cost differential for my project isn't anywhere near as vast as it is in this TR6 case

 

Richard from your initial investigations ; were you hoping to put the motor in the front (perhaps in place of the gearbox) and then to use the TR's prop, diff, half shafts, etc. for the drive train.  This configuration would leave the space where the 6-cyl. ICE was to place the batteries, and a few more batteries may go where the TR6 fuel tank sat. This seems logical as the space is already there and the car's weight distribution / handling would be least changed from standard.   As an aside, I noted with some interest in this month's TRaction that the boot / load area of the TR4 Dove was prone to being overloaded, even though it had up-rated dual-piston dampers.

Torque - Like many, I have very little knowledge of the electric power but have read that it conveys a huge amount of torque (negating the need for a gearbox).  My limited experience seeing loaded milk-floats on the streets of London, and again as a passenger on tube trains point to confirm this ..each being very impressive indeed.  However, having heard of drive-train and hub failures in both the TR4A andTR6, together with the above advisories from mtrehy, leads me to wonder if those components and the diff mounts & their structures, are up to taking that sort of torsional load.?   Or does one simply gauge and control the electric motor's output to limit the max-torque to what might be reasonable for the TR6 chassis and mechanicals. ?

Weight - I've only ever handled small electric motors and similarly-wound charging components, and I have no idea as to the weight of one which equates to 150bhp in power and torque.  Likewise I've only handled batteries from mobility scooters, cars, light vans, and modestly large yachts (starter and house batteries).  Singularly lifted & moved into position, each appear to be a highly concentrated mass.  Certainly car and motorcycle batteries are more compact than they were 50 years ago, but are the latest generation of batteries much lighter, than the gel-type batteries I now have on my own boat.? 

Have you calculated how many are needed to give the car a useful range, perhaps a 200-mile round-trip at road legal speeds.  And then how do the weight and balance calculations compare with the ICE and gearbox set-up ?   Hybrid vehicles are not new of course.., as diesel-electric trains have long served our and many other nation's needs.  Is a hybrid system available and something that you might possibly fit into your TR6.? 

I have many more questions but I fear you might be put off by any more of a barrage ..and in any case your started this thread by asking "Has anyone seriously considered this  / converting to electrical power ".  So perhaps at this conjuncture you are simply asking the same questions.  

I hope to learn more.  Thank you.

Pete.

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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Hi 

In a past life I worked on the policy behind this kind of stuff in central government. It is a very complex thing to unravel and to arrive at a system which actually reduces CO2 without causing other issues. What is clear is that we do have to reduce our CO2 outputs, and transport is a significant contributor. Politicians now understand this and have a clear knowledge of the targets they need to acheive. They have a passing knowledge of where CO2 is produced and have committed to reducing these. The issue is that there are so many inter-related challenges that have to be addressed. For example many of the tech that would allow you to reduce CO2 the quickest is also very unsustainable wheras other slower to develop and adopt technology is more sustainable..

All very challenging.

Regarding TR6 modification. In the end the construction CO2 has already been spent.. Most use the cars for modest mileage.. conversions to electric will incurr a signficant upfront CO2 cost which you may actually struggle to recoup in reduced use of hydrocarbon fuel. I would suspect that if you do <2-3000 miles per year the best thing to do is stick with ICE power and focus your efforts to reduce your own CO2 outputs on your day to day living (e.g. insulation, less flying etc).

Cheers

Tim

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20 hours ago, Bfg said:

I'd actually be interested to hear more of your own research and indeed your personal experience of driving an electric car or hybrid, as well as hearing more of your own thinking / consideration into how feasible it would be to convert your own TR, how would you do it ?  Personally I've never driven an electric car, so I cannot really poo poo the idea. 

I was very disappointed to have read of the TR6 conversion in the magazine ..when it concluded without a road-test or appraisal. Hopefully there will be a follow up soon.   In the meantime, is there such a review (any classic car converted to electric) published that you can point me to, or otherwise share please ?

Hi Pete

You were looking for some information on classic cars that have already been converted to electric and thought you might be interested in Vintage Voltage which comes up occasionally on Quest UK (TV) - and includes a Lancia Fulvia, BMW 1602, MG Midget and Ferrari 308.  I also did a search for Vintage Voltage on YouTube and it came up with some interesting results from other shows.

Cheers

Robert

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Thanks Robert, I'll check those out.   I'd not heard of Vintage Voltage, nor Quest UK, and I don't have a TV,  but now know what to look out for..

cheers, Pete.  

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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Well thanks a lot for the recent posts and especially yours, Pete.

My thoughts in asking the question was that if I could take the electrical route now was the time to start as my car is totally stripped and about to be re-built plus I have not really started on the engine or connected elements - so not spent any money here, yet. I have to say I agree with Pete's thoughts on whether it was really possible and so I aksed if anyone has invetsigated it.

I think my conclusion is:

1. It is probably really not possible to convert a TR6 as so much will need to be changed that it would be a TR6 body on something else.

2. I will almost certainly go down the traditional ICE route so continue with my hobby of a restoration that I can actually do.

3. I think forces from above will dictate electric vehicles arrive much earlier than planned now and fossil fuels will stop much earlier than we expect - 2035?

4. Classic car values will dive as no one will be able to use them circa 2035 and beyond. The end of an era but it should just see me out. It's only money spent until then.

Thanks all for an interesting set of posts. I think I have all the answers, now!

 

 

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