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Richard,

You make some interesting points. Who knows how readily available or affordable petrol will be in 15-20 years time, or how much interest future generations will have in historic vehicles. I do wonder though how truly green or sustainable electric cars will prove to be in the long term. Maybe the future will be hydrogen or some other power source despite the current enthusiasm for anything electric.

Some thoughts regarding an electric TR6 ;

It's your car to do whatever you like with. I had a chat with the company selling electric conversions of classics at the London Classic Car Show and was impressed with the engineering, if not the price. There may well be a market for them. The conversion described in TRaction recently was also interesting.

But! In my view a TR6 or any other classic with an electric motor has lost the essence of classic cars are all about. It is no more a classic car then the Flying Scotsman powered by an electric motor would be a steam train. 

Just my personal opinion, I'm sure there are lots of different views out there.

mike.

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I have a collection of series 1 Land Rovers. There is a firm offering electic conversions using 2nd hand leaf batteries for 20 to 30 thousand pounds with a range of 20 to 35 miles. I would wait and see how hydrogen fuel develops.

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35 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

5K,7K,15k,30K that's a lot of petrol! 

Not at the prices they will be asking for it in 15 years :(.

Never mind, be glad you haven't got an Italia or other classic valued (at the moment) at 100K plus. It may be that Lord Faunterlois or whomever can afford £250 tanksful of reducing availability petrol. The rest of us will convert to electric when the petrol hassel/cost equalises with an electric conversion and increased country wide availabilitywhich will fall in cost by the year. I wonder when TRGB (to mash threads) will start to offer them ? 

Mick Richards

:wub:

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Glad I read this thread before I started a new thread asking if anyone has done an E TR6? Seems they have. Bet it accelerates faster while retaining it's classic good looks!

My brother-in-law just spent 45k on a E Merc EQA. He sent me a picture of under the engine cover, all I recognised (oh just like my American phone it's underlined 'recognised' it wants me to spell it with a 'z') all the components were a total mystery to me and my car Mechanic son! 

Having said that...think of the benefits...No more embarrassing oil drops on friends fancy block-driveways you visit...No more mucking about trying to figure out if it's fouled a spark plug, or is it a blocked injector...or heaven forbid Banjo valve has packed up again! No more Thrust Washers that get squashed and fall in the sump when you do too many racing starts.  And what fun to surprise people to (not) hear a totally silent old classic sports car, that doesn't smell awful too! Yes I'm a purest too, but I can see the appeal. 

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my penny's worth . . .

Personally I'm in favour of converting to dual fuel ..  petrol and LPG.  

I had this in a Scimitar SE6A I owned (which had the old Essex 3-litre V6 lump in it). The LPG was a revelation as it was much easier to start from cold, and to drive for those first few miles during warm up.  The engine was smoother, but not soulless. True it was 10% -15% down on power (when running on the LPG) but it was a quick and convenient switch over to petrol when I needed, or simply wanted, a bit more umph.   Aside from not having black soot against the wall from start up, the spark plugs maintained a perfect colour, and the engine's oil wasn't nearly as dirty.  I'd seriously consider going that route with the TR.

I'm yet to be convinced as to the realities of long distance touring to remote places on electric power.  I don't believe old battery recycling / disposal is yet up to ecological par.  And as a classic motorcycle and car enthusiast., I suspect that I'd find an electric TR4 worse than soulless.  Indeed I certain it would simply highlight every other crude reality of a 1960's sports car and its build quality, and that would tilt the balance to my not wanting one.

Conversely if I were looking to buy a new car, to commute to work every day, then I probably would consider an electric vehicle.  

I also like to look into a classic car's tidy engine bay ..and to chat out its spec and details to friends.  I'm not in the slightest interested in looking at an electric motor, nor even a battery bank or electrical controllers.  As a hobby, for me, that's not what these cars are about. 

In short, I differentiate between the characteristics of a classic (however good, bad or ugly that may be) and the utility of commuting.   

Pete.      

 

Edited by Bfg
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2 hours ago, Richard Pope said:

Well that raised a lot f posts in a short time!

Thanks and interesting replies to my post but as I said, I had hoped to avoid most of them. I would have liked experiences of people investigating the options as I am starting to do.

 

I would have agreed to most of them but the tipping point has probably started and in five years it will have happened. Regardless of longevity, scrappage schemes will happen and fuel stations will decline as charging points increase in non-specialised sites – why go to (or have) a petrol station? Petrol to 2045? Possibly but not around every corner.

ULEZ are here and multiplying (Europe more so) whilst exemptions are likely to diminish as clean air requirements / attitude dominate.

We already have a generation of ‘green and non-carbon’ youth and schools are flat out at teaching the dangers and encouraging everything anti fossil fuelled. Have you asked a grandchild recently?

The Government has already announced (this week) a plan to charge much more for petrol and fossil fuelled vehicles. LRP was supposed to last years but didn’t. E10 is here from September. COP 26 etc. is pressing governments to extremes banning this and that and loading tax charges. Classic exemptions a likely and easy target.

A third of UK’s lithium requirements in just two years’ time can now come from a cheap extraction and recyclable process in Cornwall, giga-factories announced for battery production will bring costs down, etc. Our tin mines are viable again.

Classic car clubs now have a dearth of younger members as they are not as interested as we were on now affording the cars we once aspired to.  Our generation(s) will diminish as we drop off the end and no one will take over so demand will drop as will valuations.

Today, albeit in a small way, classic car conversion companies report full and growing order books.

 

All this and more tells me that we need to rethink our current thoughts as I begin to feel many of our heads are in the sand, oblivious to what is actually happening. I could probably include myself in this group.

 

To clarify my £7k conversion. I have done a detailed costing for rebuilding my engine myself and added in the costs not required if I went electric such as a rev counter, oil pressure gauge, fuel gauge, wiring loom, dashboard changes, etc., etc. So £7k would be saved and offset the electric motor conversion costs which I accept could be £20k. Mind you, why spend £7k now and then £20k in five years’ time.

 

I’m not convinced we are all really thinking this through. Outside forces beyond our control may dictate the future. That’s why I ask for information.

You are quite correct on the starting point. The electric build I am doing (which is actually scratch built rather than actual conversion) would have otherwise have required the owner to have crate ford V8, new gearbox, clutch, prop, fuel tank etc so the 30k conversion isn't as all additional cost.

 

With a tr6 with a Tesla drive unit in the back (which is how I'd do it), you would then not need the costs of engine, gearbox, clutch, prop, etc, so can offset all that.

Its a different prospect of you're considering converting an otherwise good running petrol vehicle when all the conversion costs are additional

 

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12 hours ago, John McCormack said:

No towns being demolished here that I have heard of! 

No I think that might be more confined to mountainside villages in Portugal such as Covas do Barroso as an example.

I believe it’s Greenbushes area in Western Australia but I do t know much about it. I’ve also read how Federal Gov’s are pouring millions into subsidising lithium mining companies.

It’s all a bit like quantitative easing and Coronavirus funding. Where does it all come from, not to mention the expense of decommissioning conventional refineries, road and seaborne tankers and fuel stations worldwide. But I think whether EV ends up a good thing or not we’re going to get it!

Kevin

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8 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi keith,

just recently the Gov't has stopped the plans for a new open cast coal concern in the North East.                                                                                     This would have produced quality steam coal and employment for a good few years without the usual mess of the TRaditional pit.                                     Never mind we will import inferior coal from Russia -  extra work for the steam preservation area, no extra employment and exporting of UK funds over seas - sounds sensible.

 

Roger

I don't disagree Roger,

I do think Climate Change is a thing we all need to be concerned about. So i think for most people to whom a car is simply a device to get from A to B, you know the equivalent to a Fridge Freezer in that it just does a job, an EV (or any zero emissions car) is great.

But for us daft enthusiasts (hence the steam train analogy) its just not the same. Asking me to swap my TR for an EV is like asking the Severn Valley Steam Railway to run Hitachi electric trains, its not going to happen.

So as an enthusiast I won’t be swapping my 15k TR for a 150k Tesla anytime soon, even if the Tesla is Free!!!

But of course the big issue is who else will go Zero Emissons? If half of US drivers continue to buy and drive big 5.0 V8 Trucks doing 15mpg our move to Nissan Leaf’s will be a drip in an ocean.

Cheers  Keith

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In the (unikely) event grandsons take a shine to the TRs, I will also encourage them to learn another new skill: brewing and distilling. No batteries, no petrol, no hydrogen, just 105 RON ethanol:

https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/ultimate-starter-kit-with-t500-boiler-with-turbo-500-copper-condenser-alembic-dome-and-condenser/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr7for7PH8QIVCrDtCh0fhgmsEAQYAiABEgI1evD_BwE

Ethanol fuelling would need minor changes to tank and carbs. Also the space above the fuel will be explosive so will need purging with cleaned exhaust gas. Nothing too difficult compared with other options.

Peter

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In our area our club typically heads off to rural Wales for many of our runs. I can confidently say that we never pass an electric charge point and our routes are typically  125 to 150 mile runs which would exceed the battery capacity of any of the conversions I have seen.

So one day electric may be the way to go, but not with the current battery and recarging technology we currently have.

So bide your time, don't walk the plank untill you have to.

Alan

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4 hours ago, Keith66 said:

I don't disagree Roger,

I do think Climate Change is a thing we all need to be concerned about. So i think for most people to whom a car is simply a device to get from A to B, you know the equivalent to a Fridge Freezer in that it just does a job, an EV (or any zero emissions car) is great.

But for us daft enthusiasts (hence the steam train analogy) its just not the same. Asking me to swap my TR for an EV is like asking the Severn Valley Steam Railway to run Hitachi electric trains, its not going to happen.

So as an enthusiast I won’t be swapping my 15k TR for a 150k Tesla anytime soon, even if the Tesla is Free!!!

But of course the big issue is who else will go Zero Emissons? If half of US drivers continue to buy and drive big 5.0 V8 Trucks doing 15mpg our move to Nissan Leaf’s will be a drip in an ocean.

Cheers  Keith

Bit off topic here and I'm not a climate change denier but its nothing new in earths history having happened many hundreds of times and the earth has survived and plants/animals have adapted. The issue is not so much its changing that's nothing new. The real problem is that there is simply just too many people and the world will not face up to it. Instead the privileged first world thinks that technology will sort it out while they can make money on the back of the "climate change band wagon". Petrol or electric will be the least of peoples problems when there is nothing to eat or drink.

Cut the population to a sustainable level then those that are left can drive historic 10L fossil fuelled trucks and use technology to have a better quality of life and the earth will heal itself.

Andy

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In a very odd way we are our own worst enemy

Not only do we invent ways to destroy ourselves (either quickly or slowly) but we also create ways of not dying.

Just 4 or 5 years ago there was a massive outbreak of Ebola in Africa. This is a very serious disease with a very high mortality rate.

Instead of letting everybody die in isolation (great clumps in Africa) the world set to to sort it out. Volunteers, PPE and then medication.

Yet we still talk about reducing the global population.

So what do we really want.

In China they have just started to allow married couples to have up to three children instead of the one child previously.

Sadly a great many town residents do not have the infrastructure for more than one child per couple. China will explode if the 3 children/couple takes off.

 

Roger

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China has its eye on economic world domination as a way of buying itself out of hunger for its massive population which has been a feature of its own long history. This is at the expense of the third world by taking their natural resources and selling the resulting cheap goods to the greedy west hooked on throwaway goods so China needs a growing population of which just a few rich "pigs" in its communist utopia are really benefiting.

The third world is trying to "level up" and emulate the West's life style. As a result its exploited by its own political class while modern medicine and charity is doled out to smooth public sensibilities in the west and reduces infant mortality with a subsequent impact on the environment. the masses hack out a living through subsistence farming as they have no viable economy to support their ever growing populations. The developed world went through the same process 150 years ago and have won the race already and their populations are now relatively stable albeit the waves of economic immigration which are beginning to make their presence felt as resources in their own counties of origin have run out or inadequate or are in turmoil due to political unrest/war. 

The only viable solution is to link any aid, economic assistance, trade deals etc to strict birth control/reduction across the globe with no exceptions which will do more for climate change than all the technology and empty rhetoric. This is where the political effort should go to first stabilise then reduce the population while using technology enrich the lives of those who remain. Here in the UK I'd like to see us back to around 40-45 million not the present 70 + which in the long term will drive social unrest. 

If countries don't play ball then disease and famine will do the job for them plus I'm sure some new more effective virus than COVID will strike (or be unleashed) as at some point which will pass from animals to humans as they are pushed closer together to make the jump.

It will take a collective world will of iron to implement and there will be those regimes who refuse and go it alone but eventually they will want what others have achieved (of course that will mean no arms, technology sales or assistance of any kind either) just in case they feel they can simply take what they want. Tough but in the end perhaps the kindest way of saving the planet for those and the rest of the plant and animal kingdom who remain hopefully in a sustainable balance. 

That said I suspect mans own greed and the current political class will mask the population issue and unfortunately our descendants can look forward to a degraded planet where food rationing or worse will be norm. Remember Logans Run anyone?

Andy

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As the instigator of this topic I did not expect the huge number of diverse replies but that's great to see. Thanks.

My conclusion is that almost no one has actually grasped my thrust in that we will all be forced to go electric very soon. Almost no post seems to accept this reality (in my view) but it is getting very close to reality IMHO. The option of 'very expensive petrol cost engined classics being no where near the cost of conversion so I'm OK' may be superceeded by events.

Electric main stream cars have won the race vs hydrogen even if Honda had hydrogen cars running years ago mainly as the ability of hydrogen production in large scale is pretty much impossible even if the pilot wind turbine in the sea produce hydrogen and pass it down redundant oil pipelines for distribution in ready-made infrastructure. In the grand scheme of things, the classic car industry will be ignored and pushed aside.

I agree an e TR is just not the same or anywhere near, but there may not be a choice.

 

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The Swedish statistican Hans Rosling considerd the question of how do we control our population.    He concluded that education, and the empowerment of women, will limit the world to 11 billion people, with no need for Malthusian solutions.

Sad to say, Rosling died in 2017, at only 69 years old.  The World needs more people who can think as clearly as he did.

Edited by john.r.davies
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On 7/3/2021 at 11:10 AM, CP26309 said:

And what fun to surprise people to hear a totally silent old classic . . .

A certain marque has been pursuing that particular holy grail for decades.  

Rolls.thumb.jpg.7dc5efe24d5ac362323932b06efb3e6b.jpg

With any luck, I've got about 40+ years of motoring ahead of me, and until we're told to go electric, the plan is to fill up at the pumps and drive it like I stole it. 

But when conversion day comes, which it will, so be it.

I'll just be sure to have Jeeves find the biggest battery he can lay his begloved hands on.  :D

Cheers, Deggers

Edited by Deggers
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Richard I mean no offence in saying this but there is a huge difference between realism and pessimism. 

Alan G

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15 hours ago, Richard Pope said:

I agree an e TR is just not the same or anywhere near, but there may not be a choice.

Richard, certainly here in NZ there continues to be choice despite what the locally despised Ms Ardern and her cronies are trying to force upon us, and I for one will continue to use petrol for as long as I can within the constraints of availability and affordability.  A converted to electric classic is no longer a classic I'm afraid - certainly in my mind.

Once the Tesla Cybertruck fails to materialise due to the lack of frontal impact and other compliance issues, the Tesla bubble will burst and people will no longer be overawed by the ridiculous (read dangerous) rates of acceleration their cars offer.  Instead, they will be looking at the more mainstream brands that offer good mileage and the normal performance that they are used to.  The people buying Teslas at the moment are simply "Electric Jesus" zealots and/or status seekers - certainly in our country. 

And I wouldn't discount hydrogen either, more difficult to role out for sure especially with regard to green production, but far better prospects for the world's vehicle fleet including heavy transport than batteries will ever be in their current form - IMHO.

All the best with your deliberations, do what feels right for you.

Gavin

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Hydrogen cells will replace batteries and the TR3 is particularly suited to a hydrogen conversion.  Still electric without all the ancillary dirty processes.

Battery may win in the short term because Elon Musk is the battery champion.  Musk is scared of hydrogen, listen to his Plaid release speech, he wants to prove that battery is THE option.

If you question hydrogen I would recommend you google the Hydrogen Council, Neom-The Line, Bloom Energy, the three car companies selling hydrogen vehicles in California and the proliferation of hydrogen refill stations.

Wartsila, and Fuel Cell are also companies that are powering through hydrogen.

The number of companies working on closed loop emission hydrogen production is through the roof.  SG H2 is one such company.

Hydro Quebec has begun hydrogen production using excess hydro.

Edited by David Owen
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Curious question, please do not shoot me

I am certain I read a couple of years ago that the by-product of hydrogen fuel cells is water, however it then went on to say that the water produced is "dead" water and is no good for anything, it will then over the years ingress into the existing waterways and slowly kill everything off

Does anybody know if there is any truth in that???

kc

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Good question KC  - there is rubbish, there is absolute rubbish, and there is complete b******s.    This is in the latter category I'm afraid. 

There are trace elements in the waste water from the materials in the fuel cell but probably fewer than in the water from your tap. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230820840_Producing_drinking_water_from_hydrogen_fuel_cells

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