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I'm nearing that stage of my restoration where I have to start thinking about a full restore of my engine and indeed the costs of dashboard, instruments, wiring looms, etc, so call that 7+k or so to spend.

Given that I probably still have a couple of project years to go that is not far off 2030 and all its implication not least the Government announcing much higher charges for petrol engines, I am seriously wondering if I should consider converting to electrical power.

Has anyone seriously considered this especially from a DIY / kit basis?

(I know there could be plenty of discussion on the whole topic of classic cars being converted but I really want to know or explore how feasible it is / could be.)

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I dont see the urgency. 2030 is supposedly the final year for sales of new fossil-fuelled cars, and given a 15 year usable life, that means fuel should be available at the pumps until ca 2045. After that, who knows? Maybe fuel will be available in drums like racing fuels today. Oil refining supplies many products eg tar for roads, so I dont see petrol vanishing totally. Petrol may eventually be a premium product. priced accordingly, but for say 1 k miles annually, hopefully affordable. Whether classics will still be admired or cursed by the general public in 2045 is debatable. 

Convert to electric? I'd never contemplate that: no exhuast note, no smells, noise/vibration. It just would not be a TR.  If fossil fuel becomes banned for road use, maybe bioethanol will return.

Peter

 

 

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Richard

It would probably cost your 7k if not more to do a conversion and you will end up with something that is not as saleable.

It was not that long ago that everyone had to run a diesel and we all know where that one went. Infact was there not someone on here who put a BMW diesel in his TR6? That probably is worth far less then if it still had the Triumph engine.

Its your car ofcourse and your choice, but how about getting a kit car body for a Nissan Leaf if you really want an electric sports car 

George 

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2 hours ago, Richard Pope said:

I'm nearing that stage of my restoration where I have to start thinking about a full restore of my engine and indeed the costs of dashboard, instruments, wiring looms, etc, so call that 7+k or so to spend.

Given that I probably still have a couple of project years to go that is not far off 2030 and all its implication not least the Government announcing much higher charges for petrol engines, I am seriously wondering if I should consider converting to electrical power.

Has anyone seriously considered this especially from a DIY / kit basis?

(I know there could be plenty of discussion on the whole topic of classic cars being converted but I really want to know or explore how feasible it is / could be.)

Hi Richard,

just get the car finished with a nice straight 6 in there and enjoy it asap

 

Roger

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If this actually is a serious question then I will give you a serious answer, dont! As mentioned in the replies above you would spoil what is undoubtably a fine car. If you feel you have to "go electolux" then buy another car and do it to that. 

Alan G

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..And there is scant evidence as yet that electric is viable, even though it is touted by manufacturers ads and governments as a ‘xero’ emission solution - impossible. 

Lithium I’ve read is a limited resource too, possibly to 2100,  and they are currently engaged in fracking and demolishing towns in Australia and Portugal etc to mine it, including scrambling 12,000 up mountains in Chile to obtain lithium from brine. Not easily obtained or chemically engineered for batteries, and nervous investors are discouraged by current poor revenue streams to encourage companies to mine it. Oh and then there’s the almost prohibitive cost and impracticability of recycling lithium from batteries, and oh, xx number of extra power stations worldwide, and then trillions of $ in charging infrastructure. I could be completely wrong, but I think they’re aiming, perhaps tongue in cheek optimism, for 2050, being ban + 20 years? I won’t be around for that! Long term, apart from the insignificant use by historic transport, it’s investment in public transport and persuading people that the free for all party is over.

But I wouldn’t panic just yet.

Edited by boxofbits
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Large quantities of Lithium are being suggested for Cornwall. 

Not sure of what they are doing but it sounds like very deep bore holes will bring Lithium out in a water stream

If that is the case then it will go part way to recover from the Tin being killed by one of our past wonderful Gov'ts

 

Roger

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Not sure how you get to 7K from that list unless you are not doing anything yourself.

There are quite a few electric TR's, just search the web, not to mention the one featured in TR Action not so long ago. I think it's great to have so much innovation but as previously stated I don't think the numbers add up.

Jerry

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3 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

given a 15 year usable life, that means fuel should be available at the pumps until ca 2045.

Peter i think you are underseling the reliability and longevity of modern cars, it's is way longer than 15 years.

Sure a 70’s or 80’s car was toast after 15 years but todays are way better, Take my 17 year old MG Zt, sure it’s got a few rattles and creaks from the interior but the big stuff like the engine, gearbox etc are spot on and look like they will last many many more years and its got almost zero rust, which was the big car killer. Ok so bushes and belts need changing and maybe the odd ancillary like an alternator or starter, but stuff lasts if its maintained and I’m sure in the early 2000’s Rover Group cars were not anywhere near as well designed or built as todays cars.

If the 15 year rule were correct the oldest cars we would see regularly would be 06 plates and there are millions of daily drivers way older than that. I can easily see ICE cars used as normal daily transport until 2055/60. That’s unless Govt decides to “encourage” the scrapping of ICE cars by imposing punitive costs on the last small % remaining by 2050

Also given current battery life and costs will we ever see the 15 year old 500 quid EV “banger” with a battery that is not stuffed and going to cost £5k to replace? Alot of people won't be very mobile if they have to find 30k for an EV, not good for the economy.

So classic cars will end up being like steam trains. Coal has almost ceased to exist as a fuel for the UK but I bet we will see steam trains around for as long as people are interested and the last BR steam loco’s stopped 1968 so 53 years already.

So i'm not panicking yet.:unsure:

Cheers   Keith

 

 

 

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IMO converting any classic car to electricity is completely against what the spirit of owning a classic car is all about to do otherwise is just producing a bit of a mongrel of an empty shell.

As said build a nice engine and fill it with as much fuel as you can and enjoy her.

Andy

Edited by PodOne
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My eldest son lives in Norway where a large proportion of cars are electric.

They have a 3 year old fully electric Mercedes which they are going to have to trade in soon because the technology has moved on so quickly it will be worth very little, a bit like an IPhone 

George 

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4 hours ago, boxofbits said:

..And there is scant evidence as yet that electric is viable, even though it is touted by manufacturers ads and governments as a ‘xero’ emission solution - impossible. 

Lithium I’ve read is a limited resource too, possibly to 2100,  and they are currently engaged in fracking and demolishing towns in Australia and Portugal etc to mine it, including scrambling 12,000 up mountains in Chile to obtain lithium from brine. Not easily obtained or chemically engineered for batteries, and nervous investors are discouraged by current poor revenue streams to encourage companies to mine it. Oh and then there’s the almost prohibitive cost and impracticability of recycling lithium from batteries, and oh, xx number of extra power stations worldwide, and then trillions of $ in charging infrastructure. I could be completely wrong, but I think they’re aiming, perhaps tongue in cheek optimism, for 2050, being ban + 20 years? I won’t be around for that! Long term, apart from the insignificant use by historic transport, it’s investment in public transport and persuading people that the free for all party is over.

But I wouldn’t panic just yet.

No towns being demolished here that I have heard of! 

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9 hours ago, Keith66 said:

Peter i think you are underseling the reliability and longevity of modern cars, it's is way longer than 15 years.

Sure a 70’s or 80’s car was toast after 15 years but todays are way better, Take my 17 year old MG Zt, sure it’s got a few rattles and creaks from the interior but the big stuff like the engine, gearbox etc are spot on and look like they will last many many more years and its got almost zero rust, which was the big car killer. Ok so bushes and belts need changing and maybe the odd ancillary like an alternator or starter, but stuff lasts if its maintained and I’m sure in the early 2000’s Rover Group cars were not anywhere near as well designed or built as todays cars.

If the 15 year rule were correct the oldest cars we would see regularly would be 06 plates and there are millions of daily drivers way older than that. I can easily see ICE cars used as normal daily transport until 2055/60. That’s unless Govt decides to “encourage” the scrapping of ICE cars by imposing punitive costs on the last small % remaining by 2050

Also given current battery life and costs will we ever see the 15 year old 500 quid EV “banger” with a battery that is not stuffed and going to cost £5k to replace? Alot of people won't be very mobile if they have to find 30k for an EV, not good for the economy.

So classic cars will end up being like steam trains. Coal has almost ceased to exist as a fuel for the UK but I bet we will see steam trains around for as long as people are interested and the last BR steam loco’s stopped 1968 so 53 years already.

So i'm not panicking yet.:unsure:

Cheers   Keith

 

 

 

Hi keith,

just recently the Gov't has stopped the plans for a new open cast coal concern in the North East.                                                                                     This would have produced quality steam coal and employment for a good few years without the usual mess of the TRaditional pit.                                     Never mind we will import inferior coal from Russia -  extra work for the steam preservation area, no extra employment and exporting of UK funds over seas - sounds sensible.

 

Roger

Edited by RogerH
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7k won't scratch the surface. I'm doing a conversion (not tr) at the moment and parts alone will be close to 30k, although that is using Tesla ldu, enough batteries for 200 mule range and CCS fast charge. 

There are ways to utilize cheaper donors but you'll still end up at 15k minimum just for parts, probably significantly more. 

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5K,7K,15k,30K that's a lot of petrol!

Low annual mileage will lower the battery life and in truth the alleged "greener credentials" are a myth. The Mercedes saga above is a case in point and will probably be scrapped by 7 years as will most of the present electric cars until they are the equal of fossil fuel or better for range, ease of charging and repair.

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Now I admit to being a dinosaur and a petrolhead so the thought of owning an electrolux car does not even register on my horizon. A good friend of mine had a loan of one of the really fast Tesla's I think it was a Tesla 95 or something like that and he offered to take me out for a run. He set it up for "ludicrously fast mode" and we took off like a fairground ride on steroids, have to say it was blindingly quick, scary in fact and I am used to fast cars.

When we got back he asked me "what do you think then"?.  Frankly I bored with it and had forgotten it even before we returned, its a one trick pony and I would be bored to death on day one of ownership "driving" one of these things, just no enjoyment, Horrible actually.

Now where is my tin hat.................

Alan G

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Well that raised a lot f posts in a short time!

Thanks and interesting replies to my post but as I said, I had hoped to avoid most of them. I would have liked experiences of people investigating the options as I am starting to do.

 

I would have agreed to most of them but the tipping point has probably started and in five years it will have happened. Regardless of longevity, scrappage schemes will happen and fuel stations will decline as charging points increase in non-specialised sites – why go to (or have) a petrol station? Petrol to 2045? Possibly but not around every corner.

ULEZ are here and multiplying (Europe more so) whilst exemptions are likely to diminish as clean air requirements / attitude dominate.

We already have a generation of ‘green and non-carbon’ youth and schools are flat out at teaching the dangers and encouraging everything anti fossil fuelled. Have you asked a grandchild recently?

The Government has already announced (this week) a plan to charge much more for petrol and fossil fuelled vehicles. LRP was supposed to last years but didn’t. E10 is here from September. COP 26 etc. is pressing governments to extremes banning this and that and loading tax charges. Classic exemptions a likely and easy target.

A third of UK’s lithium requirements in just two years’ time can now come from a cheap extraction and recyclable process in Cornwall, giga-factories announced for battery production will bring costs down, etc. Our tin mines are viable again.

Classic car clubs now have a dearth of younger members as they are not as interested as we were on now affording the cars we once aspired to.  Our generation(s) will diminish as we drop off the end and no one will take over so demand will drop as will valuations.

Today, albeit in a small way, classic car conversion companies report full and growing order books.

 

All this and more tells me that we need to rethink our current thoughts as I begin to feel many of our heads are in the sand, oblivious to what is actually happening. I could probably include myself in this group.

 

To clarify my £7k conversion. I have done a detailed costing for rebuilding my engine myself and added in the costs not required if I went electric such as a rev counter, oil pressure gauge, fuel gauge, wiring loom, dashboard changes, etc., etc. So £7k would be saved and offset the electric motor conversion costs which I accept could be £20k. Mind you, why spend £7k now and then £20k in five years’ time.

 

I’m not convinced we are all really thinking this through. Outside forces beyond our control may dictate the future. That’s why I ask for information.

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Hey each to their own Richard and good luck with you "interesting" quest.

Alan G

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13 hours ago, boxofbits said:

..And there is scant evidence as yet that electric is viable, even though it is touted by manufacturers ads and governments as a ‘xero’ emission solution - impossible. 

Lithium I’ve read is a limited resource too, possibly to 2100,  and they are currently engaged in fracking and demolishing towns in Australia and Portugal etc to mine it, including scrambling 12,000 up mountains in Chile to obtain lithium from brine. Not easily obtained or chemically engineered for batteries, and nervous investors are discouraged by current poor revenue streams to encourage companies to mine it. Oh and then there’s the almost prohibitive cost and impracticability of recycling lithium from batteries, and oh, xx number of extra power stations worldwide, and then trillions of $ in charging infrastructure. I could be completely wrong, but I think they’re aiming, perhaps tongue in cheek optimism, for 2050, being ban + 20 years? I won’t be around for that! Long term, apart from the insignificant use by historic transport, it’s investment in public transport and persuading people that the free for all party is over.

But I wouldn’t panic just yet.

I believe that the Hydrogen cell engine will kill off electric cars as it is a very cheap product to produce and the car is fueled in the same way as petrol cars. No massive investment in infrastructure required. The Japs have cars already using this method. But there is a fear of what happen to the Graf Zeppelin in the 1930's in New York? As you will be driving a potential fire bomb!

Bruce.

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1 hour ago, PodOne said:

5K,7K,15k,30K that's a lot of petrol!

Low annual mileage will lower the battery life and in truth the alleged "greener credentials" are a myth. The Mercedes saga above is a case in point and will probably be scrapped by 7 years as will most of the present electric cars until they are the equal of fossil fuel or better for range, ease of charging and repairo

5K,7K,15k,30K that's a lot of petrol! 

Not at the prices they will be asking for it in 15 years :(.

Never mind, be glad you haven't got an Italia or other classic valued (at the moment) at 100K plus. It may be that Lord Faunterlois or whomever can afford £250 tanksful of reducing availability petrol. The rest of us will convert to electric when the petrol hassel/cost equalises with an electric conversion and increased country wide availabilitywhich will fall in cost by the year. I wonder when TRGB (to mash threads) will start to offer them ? 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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