Missing TR3 Registration Plates

[David Owen]

I have found a TR3 without any registration/body plates but it does have the engine block #. 

Once I get a good look at it and can determine roughly when the body was manufactured what would be the procedure to register it with the British Heritage Museum and/or the Standard Register? 

 

[David Owen]

I take it from a lack of response there isn't anyway to do this and I'd be an idiot to buy the car?

[Andy303]

David:

More importantly, how can you get it registered for road use in Ontario? Is there a Chassis/VIN number shown on your current vehicle permit?

British Motor Industry Heritage Trust can provide a certificate with the chassis number, but to my knowledge they cannot cross reference engine number without the chassis number. Since engines can be easily swapped around it is easy to imagine why  that would be problematic in any case. As Standard Triumph provided TR engines to other manufacturers there is no easy one to one correspondence or formula. Usually the engine number is some variable number hundreds ahead of the chassis number.

 

Andy

 

[David Owen]

7 minutes ago, Andy303 said:

David:

More importantly, how can you get it registered for road use in Ontario? Is there a Chassis/VIN number shown on your current vehicle permit?

British Motor Industry Heritage Trust can provide a certificate with the chassis number, but to my knowledge they cannot cross reference engine number without the chassis number. Since engines can be easily swapped around it is easy to imagine why  that would be problematic in any case. As Standard Triumph provided TR engines to other manufacturers there is no easy one to one correspondence or formula. Usually the engine number is some variable number hundreds ahead of the chassis number.

 

Andy

 

 

 Andy, it is possible:

 

V.I.N. Requirements
Assigned vehicle identification numbers (VINs) are issued for three groups of vehicles: rebuilt motor vehicles, kit cars, and homemade vehicles (NOTE: most of these are homemade trailers).

The prefix for a rebuilt vehicle VIN is RBT, for a kit car, ASD, and for a homemade vehicle, HOM. In all cases where an assigned VIN is required, the documentation required for registration would include a sworn affidavit (statutory declaration), describing where the main component parts (body, chassis/frame and engine, if applicable) were obtained, the reason that an assigned VIN is required, and a statement that the applicant is the legal and rightful owner of the completed vehicle.

Kit Car
If a kit car does not have a 17-digit vehicle identification number (V.I.N.) on the dashboard, MTO will assign a V.I.N. starting with "ASD" at the time the owner brings in the notarized affidavit for the vehicle, and registers it as "unfit" and unplated. The owner then gets the safety standards certificate using the ASD V.I.N.

Rebuilt Vehicle
For a rebuilt vehicle where the body V.I.N. cannot be determined, MTO will assign a 17 digit V.I.N. starting with "RBT" at the time the owner brings in the notarized affidavit for the vehicle, and registers it as "unfit" and unplated. The owner then gets the safety standards certificate using the RBT V.I.N.

Edited June 25, 2021 by David Owen

[David Owen]

It would be a shame to let this car vanish into obscurity or go for parts.

[foster461]

4 hours ago, David Owen said:

I have found a TR3 without any registration/body plates but it does have the engine block #. 

Once I get a good look at it and can determine roughly when the body was manufactured what would be the procedure to register it with the British Heritage Museum and/or the Standard Register? 

 

There a couple of sources for a factory record search that may be able to match just on the engine number but how do you know that is the original engine ?

Stan

[David Owen]

6 minutes ago, foster461 said:

There a couple of sources for a factory record search that may be able to match just on the engine number but how do you know that is the original engine ?

Stan

 

Agreed.  It's not a good reference point.  My car doesn't have the original engine.  The original thought was that perhaps the Standard Register would issue a number that noted it wasn't the original VIN denoted in some way.  A series of numbers for reclaimed TRs.  This might decrease the value but at least it would be worthwhile for the inventory on a longer term basis.

However, I think I will move on.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by David Owen

[David Owen]

The more I think about this the more I think it could benefit the TR register.  Demand a significant amount of verification and charge £500+ for a VIN that shows the car has been reclaimed.  Perhaps even have an inspector in each country that is beyond reproach to ensure verification.  That would add value back to the vehicle.

 

 

[Ralph Whitaker]

Sounds like a good parts car to me, should be able to get it cheaper if no ID.

Ralph

[Black Forest TR3A]

Wouldn't it be easier to buy papers (title, customs declaration) of a scrapped car in the States? Be aware of the pre-60000 and after-60000 differences of the bodies, so the VIN in the papers should match body type, because any mismatch here can be seen on first sight...

[David Owen]

4 hours ago, Black Forest TR3A said:

Wouldn't it be easier to buy papers (title, customs declaration) of a scrapped car in the States? Be aware of the pre-60000 and after-60000 differences of the bodies, so the VIN in the papers should match body type, because any mismatch here can be seen on first sight...

 

 

Is that accepted practice?   Feels kind off offside to me but I'm completely unaware how these sort of things work.

[james christie]

 

6 hours ago, Black Forest TR3A said:

Wouldn't it be easier to buy papers (title, customs declaration) of a scrapped car

You would be invited for a stay in one of the Republic’s hotels, free of charge, if you did that in this man’s country!
 

james

[Kiwifrog]

6 hours ago, David Owen said:

 

 

Is that accepted practice?   Feels kind off offside to me but I'm completely unaware how these sort of things work.

I very much doubt it, in the UK it is known as ringing at will get you in deep trouble. Here in France it will get you a steep fine and possible jail time

[David Owen]

I'd rather the Standard Register issued a Special VIN  denoting it is not the original and the history of the car is not known.  Then at least it could be tracked it as an "on the road" TR.  Much like Ontario does the RBTxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for cars missing their VIN.

 

 

[Ralph Whitaker]

10 hours ago, David Owen said:

I'd rather the Standard Register issued a Special VIN  denoting it is not the original and the history of the car is not known.  Then at least it could be tracked it as an "on the road" TR.  Much like Ontario does the RBTxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for cars missing their VIN.

 

 

I think that is beyond the remit of the Standard Register, or the Motor Museum and carries no legal weight. It could be registered for the road in the UK but the DVLA would issue a Vin number, the car would not be considered Historic (because no history}, and would probably need to undergo a SVA (Single Vehicle Approval ) test, and be issued with a Q registration prefix which cannot ever be transferred off the vehicle, all of which devalues the car as a viable restoration prospect.

Also, have you considered why it has no ID marks on the vehicle, it seems likely that it has "donated" them to another car, so there may well be another TR out there running around posing as that one.

Ralph

Edited June 27, 2021 by Ralph Whitaker

[mikej]

Ralph raises a key concern, if the Commission plate has been removed from the body then it would have been for a reason and it's resonable to assume that it is fixed to another car. Are the two brass number plates still fitted above the battery box? If these are gone too then buy a scrap car with a Commission number and make a good car from both!

 

[David Owen]

3 hours ago, mikej said:

Ralph raises a key concern, if the Commission plate has been removed from the body then it would have been for a reason and it's resonable to assume that it is fixed to another car. Are the two brass number plates still fitted above the battery box? If these are gone too then buy a scrap car with a Commission number and make a good car from both!

 

 

4 hours ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

I think that is beyond the remit of the Standard Register, or the Motor Museum and carries no legal weight. It could be registered for the road in the UK but the DVLA would issue a Vin number, the car would not be considered Historic (because no history}, and would probably need to undergo a SVA (Single Vehicle Approval ) test, and be issued with a Q registration prefix which cannot ever be transferred off the vehicle, all of which devalues the car as a viable restoration prospect.

Also, have you considered why it has no ID marks on the vehicle, it seems likely that it has "donated" them to another car, so there may well be another TR out there running around posing as that one.

Ralph

 

Thanks everyone for the input.  It just illustrates how naive I am was when it came to this market.  I despise fake watches so I will now have to look at TR's with the same degree of cynicism as most other things.

[Andy303]

David:

Missing commission plates, EB plates, bad paperwork, wrong chassis numbers on the title are all topics that come up for discussion on the Triumph Experience forums every so often, which may be a bit more relevant to your case as there are a fair few of our Great Northern cousins who are members. Based on your previous post I think Ontario has a rational approach. Of course down here it varies by State; in my state of Ohio it is a real nightmare to change an auto title.

Here is one thread that I found that might be of interest: https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/tr2-and-tr3-forum.6/tr3-vin.732273.1690769/#msg-1690769

Anticipating this Thursday, happy Canada Day!

Andy

[David Owen]

12 minutes ago, Andy303 said:

David:

Missing commission plates, EB plates, bad paperwork, wrong chassis numbers on the title are all topics that come up for discussion on the Triumph Experience forums every so often, which may be a bit more relevant to your case as there are a fair few of our Great Northern cousins who are members. Based on your previous post I think Ontario has a rational approach. Of course down here it varies by State; in my state of Ohio it is a real nightmare to change an auto title.

Here is one thread that I found that might be of interest: https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/tr2-and-tr3-forum.6/tr3-vin.732273.1690769/#msg-1690769

Anticipating this Thursday, happy Canada Day!

Andy

 

 

Thank you on both counts.

[R.M.]

just of interest and just asking for opinions, lets say you had two tr3's one import complete with body tags and in good condition for restoration and a UK car that is just not restorable but does have a brown log book but no body tags and is not registered as scrapped, what would the opinion be for combining the two together and is it possible to do so.

[David Owen]

My personal opinion, developed during this discussion. is that any plated car should be restored.

Any unplated car should be designated as such and it's open season on what can be done with it, electrify, either battery or hydrogen, put a V8 in it and all the accompanying necessities.  Whatever, just keep the stunning lines intact.

 

[R.M.]

Many thanks for your opinion.

[David Owen]

3 minutes ago, R.M. said:

Many thanks for your opinion.

You're welcome.

[Ralph Whitaker]

3 hours ago, R.M. said:

just of interest and just asking for opinions, lets say you had two tr3's one import complete with body tags and in good condition for restoration and a UK car that is just not restorable but does have a brown log book but no body tags and is not registered as scrapped, what would the opinion be for combining the two together and is it possible to do so.

Already been done , several times I would think. I bought a donor car with a good tub and new floors, but a rotten chassis. It was an original RHD car, but the I.D plates, dash, and steering box had all been removed, and thrown in the car were the LHD dash and steering box. One can only assume the identity had been transferred to another vehicle that had been imported. Parts of that were used in the restoration of my own import, but I had all the US title and paperwork and registered it properly.

Ralph

 

[David Owen]

What is the reason you would use another car for parts vs replacement parts, other than cost? 

Edited June 29, 2021 by David Owen