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TR4A 123Ignition Tune+ distributor (Bluetooth)


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Hi Everyone,

 

It's been a long time since I've posted on this forum so I thought I'd share my initial experience of this. I got mine from SC parts for £400 which was by far the best deal.

We've owned the car 5 years now and it's sort of standard, apparently a Moss 'standard' cam (dunno if it's timed correctly...) from receipts, 86mm liners (12,000 miles), original Strombergs, period electric fuel pump (Morris 1000 et al), Kenlowe cooling fan, fully refurbished cyl head (300 miles since?) by CCK in sussex, ported exhaust, Stainless exh headers, skimmed head giving a bit more than 9:1 compression.

Originally this car was an export to Hong Kong with a low compression engine. The spacer under the head has long since been removed but I realised in researching this that the dizzy was a way diff spec (it's in the w/shop manual) to the normal 9:1 engine. It's not possible (I think) to tell what the old dizzy spec currently is without checking the weights and springs and knowing what they should have been - it wouldn't surprise me if it's not anywhere near the spec for what a 9:1 engine should be.

Car goes pretty well, even with the worn head as was, much better with refurb'd head, but problems getting consistent idle - run to hot and set idle, run for 20 mins idle OK, run for 30 mins+ and idle too high (1100 vs 900 on the tacho). Re-set it and then a 20 min drive in town is nightmare cos it always wants to stall.

Carbs are allegedly refurbed by PO, have just checked diaphragms and general visual and look OK. A job further down the line to fully check them.

Reasons for the upgrade: poor idle, OKish mpg (28?) but hoping to improve, better smoother throttle response, maybe a few more horses?, old dizzy must be tired so new seemed a good option when refurb/exchange is £250, the 123 tune+ offers an immobiliser unlocked by PIN from your smartphone (excellent feature imho).

Installation was pretty easy. I've not done anything much with dizzies before. The problem is the timing curves. They deliberately don't give you any starting positions. A library is available and you can buy one for your car if they have it (30EUR) but the 4A was not listed.

So did a lot of research and this very useful post has the curves needed:

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/73099-tr3-and-tr4-timing-curves/

And the w/shop manual has all the details as well. The 4A curve in the other thread does match the manual, albeit on the top end of the advance ranges given. So I used the manaul's figures at first, but forgot to add the 4 deg static advance. The car ran, idled poorly but revved ok, I didn't drive it. It did however run very hot.

Corrected my error, resulting in the same curve as the other thread. Also had only half the vacuum adv degs stated in the manual. But ran, idled, revved Ok so looked promising. Did not drive it. Set the idle and choke throttle opening carefully. There was a Eureka! moment at this point. The display on the phone shows revs and that allowed me to learn that the old tacho over-reads by around a 100+rpm. So I had a reasonably good idle for 15-20 minutes at around 900rpm with good temp management and the fan cutting in and out accordingly.

Realised the vacuum degs error overnight, corrected that and drove the car today. Wow! I didn't expect that! Pick up is better, managing the clutch is better as revs don't tend to die off so easily, throttle response way better especially initial, pulls much more evenly thru the rev range and pulls eagerly to 4500 (not taken it higher thus far). I have no doubt that fuel consumption will be better but will take a while to check this. Also no pinking under heavy load.

Anyway to help others thinking of doing this here are the curve parameters that you need for 'standard' and in the format required by the 123Ign app:

Centrifugal: 500 - 4 deg; 700 - 8; 1000 - 14; 1200 - 18; 1500 - 24; 1600 - 26; 8000 - 26 (there are a few extra points in this list not strictly needed)

Vacuum: 0 kPa 5.4; 80 - 5.4; 83 - 5.0; 86 - 3.4; 90 - 2.0; 93 - 0.0; 100 - 0.0; 200 - 0.0

It did take me a while to get this right - it's easy when you know but I was new to all this stuff and the vacuum is especially confusing at first, not least because the vac pressures in the manual are in inches/Hg(mercury)!

So now I have a good base to tune further from, potentially on a rolling road. The app lets you pre-define as many files (set of parameters) as you want and so you can prep diff options and load them into the dizzy quickly and easily for each test run.

Anyway, long essay but I hope it might be useful to others in due course.

Graham

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Ive had a Tune+ on my 6 for a few years now and its been totally reliable.

Still meaning to have a rolling road tune done on the car for the PI and the Ignition , but never seem to get around to it !

steve 

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Yeah I was wondering about reliability so that's very encouraging Steve.

Also I found this web page, extremely useful to check what spec a Lucas dist. is for pretty much all cars - old, older and very old:

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig126.htm

Graham

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On 6/23/2021 at 3:17 PM, grimboh said:

So did a lot of research and this very useful post has the curves needed:

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/73099-tr3-and-tr4-timing-curves/

And the w/shop manual has all the details as well. The 4A curve in the other thread does match the manual, albeit on the top end of the advance ranges given. So I used the manaul's figures at first, but forgot to add the 4 deg static advance. The car ran, idled poorly but revved ok, I didn't drive it. It did however run very hot.

Corrected my error, resulting in the same curve as the other thread. Also had only half the vacuum adv degs stated in the manual. But ran, idled, revved Ok so looked promising. Did not drive it. Set the idle and choke throttle opening carefully. There was a Eureka! moment at this point. The display on the phone shows revs and that allowed me to learn that the old tacho over-reads by around a 100+rpm. So I had a reasonably good idle for 15-20 minutes at around 900rpm with good temp management and the fan cutting in and out accordingly.

Realised the vacuum degs error overnight, corrected that and drove the car today. Wow! I didn't expect that! Pick up is better, managing the clutch is better as revs don't tend to die off so easily, throttle response way better especially initial, pulls much more evenly thru the rev range and pulls eagerly to 4500 (not taken it higher thus far). I have no doubt that fuel consumption will be better but will take a while to check this. Also no pinking under heavy load.

Anyway to help others thinking of doing this here are the curve parameters that you need for 'standard' and in the format required by the 123Ign app:

Centrifugal: 500 - 4 deg; 700 - 8; 1000 - 14; 1200 - 18; 1500 - 24; 1600 - 26; 8000 - 26 (there are a few extra points in this list not strictly needed)

Vacuum: 0 kPa 5.4; 80 - 5.4; 83 - 5.0; 86 - 3.4; 90 - 2.0; 93 - 0.0; 100 - 0.0; 200 - 0.0

It did take me a while to get this right - it's easy when you know but I was new to all this stuff and the vacuum is especially confusing at first, not least because the vac pressures in the manual are in inches/Hg(mercury)!

 

 

Good to see that someone else has had a positive experience with the 123tune + .

i posted my advance and MAP curves on another recent thread, but I will add here as well. I spoke to the guys at Albertronic who recommended that the static timing should not be added to the curve - just used for initial set up of the 123 (set the static advance and then twist the 123 body for the LED illumination)

I also found that my tacho was significantly over-reading

One day I’ll get it on a rolling road :) 

....... Andy

 

C3F65E3E-E65D-45E3-BC0E-AC78677BF187.png

9EAB2908-4643-4309-A567-3C1A1CDCF929.png

Edited by AndyR100
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That's really interesting Andy.

So your numbers need +4 deg added for the total advance, so that gives max adv of 33 deg. A lot more than in the w/shop manual for the 4A and the 4, which is 26 deg. Also I have more advance at low revs than you. Too low around 500-1000 and mine overheats on idle, and the idle is poor.

That suggests that I can experiment with more advance at higher revs, which is what I had expected.

Your vac curve needs 5.4 entry at zero pressure, otherwise a lot of neg pressure (vacuum) below 80 kPa will start to tail the adv off. Dunno if it ever gets that much vacuum though... It's also encouraging that we both calculated the vacuum entries exactly the same!

Cheers

Graham

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Also, the only advantage that I can see for setting a conventional static 4 degrees is that the app does not let you add any advance below 500rpm, so with my settings I have no advance at all when the engine is trying to start.

It mostly starts well, but once when hot it wasn't so keen to fire up, and I think this will be reason. So I think I'll use their recommendation and set a static 4 degrees, and take 4 deg off my settings.

Graham

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Hi Graham,

Of course, my understanding may not be perfect - but i think the reason they recommended dialling-in the 4 degree static advance was so that it was there for starting. Once the car is running - RPM over 650/700 then the advance is controlled solely by the 123, so my defined max advance of 29 degrees is the high watermark.

your advance does come in a little stronger than mine in the lower rev-ranges, an area for me to investigate (without melting anything - mine is 87mm liners and a mildly tweaked cam with HS6's)

It was a slight relief to see that the MAP calculation we arrived at are the same :)  i'm not sure it needs the entry at 0Kpa  - but i'll think about it again.  Most of the example curves i found didn't have a data-point there either.

All good fun :) 

...... Andy

Edited by AndyR100
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Hi Andy,

Well I'd've thought that if you set the position of the green led just coming on to be at 4 deg static advance (ie crankshaft physically at 4 deg before #1 piston is at TDC) then surely that advance will apply (add) to all the rpm points the 123 is programmed for? So 4 deg on startup, and all advance entries +4 deg static.

The 123 can't 'know' that it's set at 4 deg BTDC, or TDC, or any other point for that matter. All it assumes is that you've set the point for the LED correctly for your car, their manual says at TDC but our w/shop manual requires the physical static 4 deg. You could still do the old trick of physically turning the distributor whilst running and see how it affects the revs.

Regards,

Graham

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Hi Graham,

I started off with similar approach as you - but chose a different path after the feedback from Albertronic. My initial question to them related to the need for doing the green-light set up at TDC or at the  static timing value. I then configured the centrifugal advance to broadly line up with some of the other example curves that i had found for our cars.

In doing so I may have introduced more advance than intended - I’ll have another look (I’m not suffering from pinking or overheating) 

the great thing about these 123 distributors is that you can adjust all of this so easily without ripping the thing apart - 2 mins without getting your hands dirty in the slightest!

 An RR session with the right person Is on my wish-list :) 

....... Andy 

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Andy - indeed really easy to change and with confidence that it will accurate! And yep, RR is on my list too, but got a few other things to sort before that so I can get the best out of it.

Graham

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:57 PM, grimboh said:

 

Well I'd've thought that if you set the position of the green led just coming on to be at 4 deg static advance (ie crankshaft physically at 4 deg before #1 piston is at TDC) then surely that advance will apply (add) to all the rpm points the 123 is programmed for? So 4 deg on startup, and all advance entries +4 deg static.

 

Hi Graham,

yes, you are quite correct, I have been back through the set-up info - the static timing sets the baseline from which the 123 curve begins. So my car is currently running a little more advance than I had intended. At least I know that it can take that kind of advance without melting anything :)

..... Andy 

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Graham

i’m going to go down this route as well, had an earlier version of 123 fitted to my VW bus & loved the reliability, this version adds security as well so an extra bonus. Questions, what coil did you go with , and did you change the vacuum pipe & I’m guessing you still had mechanical Rev counter so was this a case of wiring to live on ignition?
many thanks

David

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I have a 123+ installed as well on my 4a - 89mm pistons. Racetorations 777 cam. Worked head and Weber 45's

I had it rolling road tuned when the Weber’s were fitted and was told no adjustments to the curve were required - I do not have vacuum advance. 


Just gone into the 123 app on my iPhone to post the curve here and it’s not loading - phone has just been upgraded to IOS 15 

 

 

4280EAF1-4FDF-4C67-B150-943E1A2516E4.jpeg

258D2C3B-29B8-4721-BE96-AEBEA102BC6F.jpeg

Edited by MikeWhite
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With such a camshaft, I am surprised at the reduction in torque from 3250 onwards. 

The ideal is a near flat torque curve from about 3800 to just past 5000, whereas the significant droop shown here looks more like the standard TR4 engine, where the torque drops from about 3600 - see attachment.   BTW, Alec Pringle thought that 4VC's torque curve was near ideal for a rally car, which is how it was built.

Incidentally, if the figures shown are for the power measured at the rollers, that is not BHP (Brake Horse Power), it is Horsepower.

Of course, one can make assumptions about the losses in the transmission and come to an informed guess as to BHP, but what really matters is the oomph at the road (or rollers, in this case),

Ian Cornish

Annotated plots 4VC v Standard.doc

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This was an earlier rolling road graph, previous owner had the car / engine prepared by Racetorations for historic rallying - torque cure looks similar dropping from 3500

1A003E7A-7019-44C3-8511-EF17F0E739E2.jpeg

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On 6/24/2021 at 9:26 PM, AndyR100 said:

Good to see that someone else has had a positive experience with the 123tune +

Andy,

How much did you pay for the 123?

Ciao,

   David

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17 minutes ago, AndyR100 said:

From memory I think my tune+ was around £350

..... Andy

Thanks, Andy

It's a lot, but even a DD reconditioned unit will not be cheap.

I am thinking about replacing the TR4 distributor on my TR3 (which has an ancient Lumenition conversion fitted alongside it), I think it's a DM25, with a 1-2-3. But I think it would be beyond my skills to get one where you can change the settings at the flip of your laptop lid. I'd rather "fit and forget", knowing my technical limitations. Time was when I would adjust the points on my TR2 and check the cap for arcing and replace the ritor arm. That was as far as I went.

Ciao,

  David

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1 hour ago, DavidBee said:

Thanks, Andy

It's a lot, but even a DD reconditioned unit will not be cheap.

I am thinking about replacing the TR4 distributor on my TR3 (which has an ancient Lumenition conversion fitted alongside it), I think it's a DM25, with a 1-2-3. But I think it would be beyond my skills to get one where you can change the settings at the flip of your laptop lid. I'd rather "fit and forget", knowing my technical limitations. Time was when I would adjust the points on my TR2 and check the cap for arcing and replace the ritor arm. That was as far as I went.

Ciao,

  David

The main feature of the 123 (to my mind) is the ability to easily and simply change the ignition curve (the only difference between the versions and their cost is how you change it and pre-sets) . If you don’t intend to use that functionality then I’d respectfully suggest a DD rebuilt item would be your best bet

....... Andy 

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I bought mine direct from 123 Holland- 412 euros delivered to the U.K. 

 

That was for the Bluetooth version for a TR4 which has the phone activated immobiliser 

 

Mike 

Edited by MikeWhite
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38 minutes ago, AndyR100 said:

The main feature of the 123 (to my mind) is the ability to easily and simply change the ignition curve (the only difference between the versions and their cost is how you change it and pre-sets) . If you don’t intend to use that functionality then I’d respectfully suggest a DD rebuilt item would be your best bet

....... Andy 

Thanks for your advice, Andy!

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A standard dizzy is fine if you have a standard engine.

Again a modified standard dizzy is fine if the advance curve is set by someone who knows the specification of yoour engine. Fast road cam and stage "x" head is not enough as one suppliers fast road or rally or race cam will likely be different to another and likewise the head, compression ratio, carburetion and exhaust.

Ultimately to know how to set up the dizzy with a modified car requires a roaling road session to do a distributor swing to find the optimum values at different revs.

Armed with that data you can build the distributor accordingly, Program a 123 with the correct curve or select from one of the pre-set curves depending on model you have.

if you know someone with the identical spec engine then the work may have been done for you.

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25 minutes ago, Andy Moltu said:

 

Again a modified standard dizzy is fine if the advance curve is set by someone who knows the specification of yoour engine. Fast road cam and stage "x" head is not enough as one suppliers fast road or rally or race cam will likely be different to another and likewise the head, compression ratio, carburetion and exhaust.

 

Thats why Martin ( http://www.distributordoctor.com/ ) will carefully question you as to the spec of the engine so he can build your distributor specifically for your engine. Go to the people who know. Thats why we fit his dizzys.

Stuart.

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I would argue that no one individual has knowledge of the exact timing requirements of every modified engine.

Yes the DD may have specific knowledge of the common cams that can be timed differently, with common head mods, but no one has all of the data for all cams combined with all bore sizes, with all potential head mods, CRs and the permutations of carburisation become considerable. Yes most will take an approximate curve for the regular mods. However the exact best requires a RR set up.

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On 9/23/2021 at 5:15 PM, MikeWhite said:

I have a 123+ installed as well on my 4a - 89mm pistons. Racetorations 777 cam. Worked head and Weber 45's

I had it rolling road tuned when the Weber’s were fitted and was told no adjustments to the curve were required - I do not have vacuum advance. 


Just gone into the 123 app on my iPhone to post the curve here and it’s not loading - phone has just been upgraded to IOS 15 

 

 

4280EAF1-4FDF-4C67-B150-943E1A2516E4.jpeg

258D2C3B-29B8-4721-BE96-AEBEA102BC6F.jpeg

Hi Mike,

Note your post regarding the app not opening on upgrading your iPhone, could you still enable/disable the immobiliser function? Like the idea of it, but the idea of a phone issue preventing the car starting worries me.

Tom

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