Tr4 Liner Protrusion

[barrytr4]

Hi mates -

been getting bubbles in my water, and a bit of water in the oil, Just took the head off, the liners gaps on the dissy side were all 5 thou, but on the manifold side, they were all less than .1.5 thou the thinnest gage   I had,  prob' less than one thou or even 0 gap, so what could cause that? I have a feeling the other ( early )  engines  in the range  may have a different liner base gaskets and I may have used the wrong one, it was years ago , any ideas --Barry

[Lebro]

The figure of 8 seals are unlikely to be the culprit, as, yes they do come in varying thicknesses, but they won't be different one side to the other.

Could the liners have moved (perhaps tilted sideways) since you took the head off, are you measuring the protrusion with any clamps on the liners ?

Only other explanation I can think of is that the block surface has been machined previously out of true, or the liners them selves are not correctly machined. (unlikely if all are showing the "tilt" on the same side.

Bob.

[Motorsport Mickey]

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Edited June 7, 2021 by Motorsport Mickey
Duplicate

[Motorsport Mickey]

20 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Quite common Barry.

The interior casting does not allow the expansion of the block evenly, some areas better supported than others. After 50 years of stress relieving with hot and cold cycles the block deck surface is likely uneven. Also the liner registers ( shoulders)  machined in the block for the liners to seat on will likely have moved dropping by 1 thou or 2. Which multiplied over the liner length above the shoulder means instead of being parallel to each other  they look like Ken Dodds teeth all pointing in different directions !

No short cuts here Barry. After measuring liner protrusion with them all clamped down ( I take it they’ve been in there since you last rebuilt it) so shouldn’t move when the engine is turned over with the head off. Make a note of the liner amounts And the liner position and orientation in the block if you are reusing, then pull the engine out and then the liners. Fully strip the engine,  have it blueprinted with the deck surface cut at 90 deg to the crankshaft. Also have the liner shoulders in the block recut, probably only a couple of thou each shoulder. Fit copper Figure of 8 gaskets dry on top of the shoulders refit the liners and pull down to 105 lb ft with the head and a cleaned copper head gasket. Remove the head, secure the liners again and remeasure the liner protrusion which should now all be plus, just depends how much. Remove the liners and have machined down by the couple of thou needed, refit still on the dry liner gaskets and pull down with the head and gasket again. Remove head secure liners remeasure liners again, if ok pull liners wipe EVERY surface that touches and mates between block, Fo8 gaskets and liners and I always refit head and pull down to recheck all is good. Then carry on rebuild...tough huh ?

OR you could try some shady tree engineering and leave the engine and liners and glue or soft solder some thin gauge copper wire ( they do it in various Dias 4 or 5 thou should be enough) around the cylinder liner holes in the standard copper gasket so it’s compressed by the head and makes the gasket seal. 
I’d be trying that, I like driving more than working on them.

Mick Richards

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Motorsport Mickey

[barrytr4]

Hi Mates

thanks for the tips so far , no didn't clamp them down to test , I will have to give this some more thought--after clamped test will take out the liners and  / check them and the fig' 8 seals

Barry

[barrytr4]

Hi Mates

 Just had an idea, after confirming the Ht  w/ clamped liners ,  file the liner height square w/ the block then adjust the liner height  to the right height, just an idea ? btw the top face of the block looks  original surface 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Dang me ! Even I've never tried resurfacing liners in the block by filing! 

Barry, If the block has an original deck height it's very likely the surface is "uneven" as a charitable description. If you file the liners to the block as it is then you'll end up with a flush liner/block surface (hopefully)...which is uneven.

Then you are back to trying to achieve a clamp around the liners which has to withstand maybe 180 lb compressive force and still be flexible enough to deform onto the water jacket to seal the internal waterways from block to head. A flush liner won't cut it, it relies upon the proud amounts above the block to be sure of a compressed seal around the liners. You may get away with a 1 thou mismatch somewhere around the liners sealed area. You would then be back to soft soldering or gluing the small gauge copper wire onto the copper gasket to give a compressed clamp in these areas.

If you are determined not to strip the engine to remedy then why not have a go at this extra "copper O ring" fix onto the copper head gasket with the engine as it is, which is what I would do. ? It's cheap other than the cost of a new gasket, the copper wire is available through e bay cheaply and there is no effort to make the repair.

If it doesn't work it will only have cost the time to do it 2-3 hours and then you can evaluate again as what's to be done.

Mick Richards

   

[barrytr4]

Hi Mick--Thanks for that, just been on to to the engine reconer's, best would take the bare block in and they take 3 or 4 thou off the block top face  that should bring the liners right height, not looking forward to the work though , and it freezing outside well a cold wind--Barry

[Ian Vincent]

Here is a link to a previous article on this forum about ‘Fire rings’

Rgds Ian

[Motorsport Mickey]

29 minutes ago, barrytr4 said:

Hi Mick--Thanks for that, just been on to to the engine reconer's, best would take the bare block in and they take 3 or 4 thou off the block top face  that should bring the liners right height, not looking forward to the work though , and it freezing outside well a cold wind--Barry

Barry, before you take the block in buy some Figure of 8 gaskets and measure their thickness when compared to the Fo8 gaskets fitted now. Then you can calculate how much to tell them to take off the block to leave you with 4 thou proud liners on the new Fo8 when fitted. The copper Fo8 gaskets don't compress and the steels shouldn't either. The liners do need torqueing down to 105lbs and then clamped for you to measure their protrusion when fitted  

Mick Richards

[Ian Vincent]

4 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Barry, before you take the block in buy some Figure of 8 gaskets and measure their thickness when compared to the Fo8 gaskets fitted now. Then you can calculate how much to tell them to take off the block to leave you with 4 thou proud liners on the new Fo8 when fitted. The copper Fo8 gaskets don't compress and the steels shouldn't either. The liners do need torqueing down to 105lbs and then clamped for you to measure their protrusion when fitted  

Mick Richards

Alternatively buy the new F08 gaskets and take the block, liners and new gaskets to the machine shop and ask them to sort it. If they know what they are doing they will clamp the liners down before they start measuring things. 

Rgds Ian

Edited June 8, 2021 by Ian Vincent

[Motorsport Mickey]

That’s a great pointer from Ian, an experienced engineering shop would likely do that ok.

BUT unless you know the shop will do exactly what you ask for they’ll think ..”.Jeez that TR head weighs a ton, no need to lug it on and off,  just clamp the liners from the studs that’ll press the Fo8 down ok...” which it won’t. The most important point when working with machine shops ...measure it going in...and measure it when it comes out. NEVER trust a machinist, experience borne of poor outcomes because they do it “the way we always do it”.

I have dropped the block with age corroded fixed in liners into the shop, asked them to skim parallel to crank including the liners and then call me without removing the block from the machine. ( I was working 10 mins away). I’ve gone into the shop and pulled the liners ( after marking them 1234 and their front edge with marker pen) using a threaded rod and alloy plugs. Then asked them to skim another 4 thou off the block. Take the block home and rebuild at leisure juggling the Fo8 gaskets to give me my liner height.

Mick Richards